I have a bunch of "cube" shelves. They are 16in wide x 16in high x 12in deep. I'd like to build matching boxes for a set of speakers and subs.
The plan is to have 2 full range speakers, and 2 subs. I think I've settled on 8" all around, but I could do differently if that would sound weird.
I think I'll build them to look like the MasterSounds speakers since they are symmetrical and fit my "design limitation" (the cube shape).
I need help with the internals though. I've looked at a few different layouts/blueprints around but I guess I need a sanity check. Mainly I can't figure out why I would pick 1 layout over another. Like bass reflex, maze, single fold L, 4th order, 6th order, so on. based on MasterSounds they just list the Speakers as Bass reflex, and the subs as 4th order. Should I do the same? CAN I do the same? Do I even need to worry that much? I was thinking just doing it like this for the Speakers. And like this for the subs.
The plan is to have 2 full range speakers, and 2 subs. I think I've settled on 8" all around, but I could do differently if that would sound weird.
I think I'll build them to look like the MasterSounds speakers since they are symmetrical and fit my "design limitation" (the cube shape).
I need help with the internals though. I've looked at a few different layouts/blueprints around but I guess I need a sanity check. Mainly I can't figure out why I would pick 1 layout over another. Like bass reflex, maze, single fold L, 4th order, 6th order, so on. based on MasterSounds they just list the Speakers as Bass reflex, and the subs as 4th order. Should I do the same? CAN I do the same? Do I even need to worry that much? I was thinking just doing it like this for the Speakers. And like this for the subs.
Given the long high aspect ratio of the vents will require some extrpolation of the simulation to get the tuning right.
You have essentially drawn one of my miniOnken (centre) channels. https://frugal-horn.com/downloads/centre/A12-centreB.pdf
I doubt you will find an 8” that will fit that small a box and work vented. It should also be noted that typically with subs teh top is likely better sealed or aperiodic.
I can only recommend 2 8s, neither will work in your application, i would suggest that a smaller FR wiould do a better job and fit the design brief.
dave
Thanks for replying! I clearly have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just trying to make something be pretty based on my weird "design constraint", the 16x16x12 box.
I was thinking of using the Lii Audio Fast 8 originally, but if that doesn't work or no 8s actually work, I can do 6s. I don't listen to anything VERY loud anyway. I think the MasterSounds A series uses 6s too, so that makes sense. Their box is smaller though.
That miniOnken IS very similar to what I want. It's using an 8, whats different in their design to mine that makes mine not work? It's just a much smaller box/volume it seems.
The Lii Audio Fast-6 doesn't seem nearly as good as the Fast-8. Maybe I can find a Dayton 6 FR. Any suggestions?
What do you mean about a sealed/aperiodic top for the subs? The right side chamber is smaller than the left side chamber is that's what you mean. I based that on this 6th order bandpass.
I was thinking of using the Lii Audio Fast 8 originally, but if that doesn't work or no 8s actually work, I can do 6s. I don't listen to anything VERY loud anyway. I think the MasterSounds A series uses 6s too, so that makes sense. Their box is smaller though.
That miniOnken IS very similar to what I want. It's using an 8, whats different in their design to mine that makes mine not work? It's just a much smaller box/volume it seems.
The Lii Audio Fast-6 doesn't seem nearly as good as the Fast-8. Maybe I can find a Dayton 6 FR. Any suggestions?
What do you mean about a sealed/aperiodic top for the subs? The right side chamber is smaller than the left side chamber is that's what you mean. I based that on this 6th order bandpass.
The sapce tyou have is likely too small. It is for either oif the 8s i have liked, i won’t go near the Lii stuff as teh data they publish is inconsistent. Their modus operandi seems top be to copy old vintage drivers in looks.
Maximizing the volume of the available space gives 36 litres, but som ebracing will be required. Yoiu could almost squeeze an FA22 into that volume, (it would prefer at least 45 litres) and one does not really need helper woofers. The other 8 i like is not suitable at all for a standard box.
Given that you will have bass support, and the midTweeter willnot need to do heavy lifting, the better performance of a smaller driver in the midrange and particularily up top makes so much more sense than compromising just because in the minds of many males, bigger is better.
dave
@tubelectron built some smallish cubes withe Mark Audio Alpair 10.3 mentioned briefly at
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/the-alpair-cube.381047/post-6890299. He has also done some small and large ripole subs but not sure whether these are used with the cubes. I think T and a fellow builder had an issue with the crossover in the small micro plate amp re-reading the thread, but the larger 12” sub is still operating. http://diyaudioprojects.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7327&p=61899#p61899
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/the-alpair-cube.381047/post-6890299. He has also done some small and large ripole subs but not sure whether these are used with the cubes. I think T and a fellow builder had an issue with the crossover in the small micro plate amp re-reading the thread, but the larger 12” sub is still operating. http://diyaudioprojects.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7327&p=61899#p61899
Last edited:
Don't I have way more volume than the miniOnken? Unless my math is wrong.
Not counting the port volume and bracing:
I have 1674.75 cu in or 27.4 L.
MiniOnken has 852.975 cu in or ~14 L
Is this wrong? Am I forget to account for something?
Like I said If I have to use 6 in Full Range speakers, I'm fien with that. I'm just trying to wrap my head around what's going on.
I'll stay away from the Lii Audio then. Maybe just stick to Dayton since they haven't done me wrong in the past I guess. I do want to stay in a reasonable budget in the end. This doesn't have to be an end game speaker set.
I'll check those out for some feedback woodo! Thank you.
Depends which one you build. They range from 2.5 to 135 litres to date. The example i showed was just the first i could find.
You don’t have to use the entire volume possible. The outside just has to be the right shape.
dave
You can usually do better than that. Dayton is Parts Express housebrand, drivers made, usually, by who can make them the cheapest.
Some Fostex (FF165wk) and many Markaudio are much better. Dayton does have a few nice drivers. The 6 & 8” point source and the Aura drivers with Dayton labels. Some of the woofers are highly regarded.
My first suggestion would be Alpair 10.3/p but now NLA and getting harder to find.
For the application i would personally consider Pluvia 7HD first for my own use. You can push a miniOnken to 11 litres, gives room for a secret stash.
dave
Thanks Planet10! I'll look into those drivers. The Pluvias look surprisingly good for the price. I'll do some more research!
Thanks freddi! I was wondering if I would end up having to do that with the SUB. I'm really trying to understand how to make the most use out of the space I have, but there is a lot of math and strange variables I'm struggling to wrap my head around. I was just going off of what MasterSounds accomplished and hoping I could do the same since I have more space than they do.
Thanks freddi! I was wondering if I would end up having to do that with the SUB. I'm really trying to understand how to make the most use out of the space I have, but there is a lot of math and strange variables I'm struggling to wrap my head around. I was just going off of what MasterSounds accomplished and hoping I could do the same since I have more space than they do.
Thanks @woodo : that's it, you are absolutely right.
Yes, only the bigger one 2x12" is operational today.
I dimantled the two others that were only "limit validation" tests. They both worked successfully, but the small integrated sub amp module that I used had poor crossover performances, so the results were not as good as expected for this sole reason : poor electronics, not the Ripole principle.
When connected to the serious ATOHM S250 sub module of the 2x12", the small 2x5" and 2x7" were absolutely convincing. If I only could find a small module offering good X-over performances, I would rebuild them... Member Spassgeneral from https://diyaudioprojects.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7327&start=10 came to the same conclusions.
Here is a picture below of the successful, amazing and encouraging test of a compact Ripole I first made - the sub module used for the test was the ATOHM S250 from the OMEGA Ripole 2x12 :
T
If the second statement means that you have not done much box design previously, I would not suggest a bandpass box of any kind. They're fussier than ported or sealed. And honestly, I'd suggest doing all of your speakers sealed if you can find suitable drivers for what you want. It's so much easier for an inexperienced builder.
If you use an amp on the subs that includes DSP/EQ capability, you can squeeze some extra low end out of the driver, so you won't be losing much compared to a ported box. Along the same lines, if you're using a sub, most of the benefit of a ported enclosure for the full range speakers will likely be irrelevant.
mattstat, thanks for the info. I did a bunch more homework yesterday and clearly with my dimensions anything ported or vented is borderline impossible according to most calculators.
I'm honestly REALLY curious how MasterSounds is getting away with their design or if they are just lying. I think both the sub and the speakers will now be sealed. Unless vents on speakers works differently than they do with subs. I didn't get to that yesterday night.
So now the plan is for both speakers and subs to be seald, have fake vents for the look cus thats nicer than a giant 16x16 slab with an measly 6 or 8 inch speaker in it, and the same for the sub but likely using an 8 or 10. With the larger volume inside I can go nuts on bracing too.
Now I just need to decide on with speakers and subs, and finalize the design.
I'm honestly REALLY curious how MasterSounds is getting away with their design or if they are just lying. I think both the sub and the speakers will now be sealed. Unless vents on speakers works differently than they do with subs. I didn't get to that yesterday night.
So now the plan is for both speakers and subs to be seald, have fake vents for the look cus thats nicer than a giant 16x16 slab with an measly 6 or 8 inch speaker in it, and the same for the sub but likely using an 8 or 10. With the larger volume inside I can go nuts on bracing too.
Now I just need to decide on with speakers and subs, and finalize the design.
I'm not really familiar with their products, but it looks like they're being a little creative with specs on their website. It says the sub's rated sensitivity is into 1/8 space (corner loaded). That's not the way speakers are normally measured, and will exaggerate the sensitivity compared to other drivers you are looking at. It may be a valid way to look at things if that's the intended application, but it's a little abnormal to spec a sub that way.
Sensitivity also tends to be where there are more discrepancies when it comes to measurements of finished speakers in reviews vs. manufacturer specs. Multiple reasons why that's the case. It's not all lying. There's more that's up to interpretation on that one vs other performance aspects. On a raw driver the tests are more standardized, but once you're packaging it and intending it to be used a specific way, it gives you more freedom to get creative in how you look at it.
The normal thing to sacrifice in order to cram a woofer into a small box is sensitivity. They likely either picked an off-the-shelf low sensitivity subwoofer driver or had one customized to do what they needed (relatively common even for lower volume manufacturers).
Bandpass designs can also add sensitivity, but it's typically at the expense of ripple, a narrow pass band, and degraded transients.
The other thing you can sacrifice to fit a speaker in a small box is low frequency extension. This is obviously more relevant to your full-range cabinets. If you only need to play down to something like 80 Hz, that should open up some more options.
Yeah it's very weird. After doing any homework I started to realize a lot of whats listed doesn't add up. I'm not too concerned cus I just like the look more than anything.
I mean my single design criteria is that the outer dimensions of my boxes are 16x16x12. I'd like to have the vents, but I can skip them or make them fake.
Really now I just need to figure out if the full range speakers will need vents or not, if I need to make the internal volume smaller, and if any padding is needed.
This project turned out quite a bit more complex than I thought it would be, mainly cus I wanna do it right.
I mean my single design criteria is that the outer dimensions of my boxes are 16x16x12. I'd like to have the vents, but I can skip them or make them fake.
Really now I just need to figure out if the full range speakers will need vents or not, if I need to make the internal volume smaller, and if any padding is needed.
This project turned out quite a bit more complex than I thought it would be, mainly cus I wanna do it right.
Hmm, regardless of what they're publishing they can't 'break through' the 'wall of science' TTBOMK, i.e., max eff. for a given tuning/box net Vb, so let these charts guide you..........
Efficiency conversion
Efficiency conversion
Attachments
My 2x12" Omega Ripole is H=400mm, W=440mm, D=400mm, that is to say : 15.74x17.32x15.74 in inches, including the sub amplifier - not very far from your limits...
But you can't place it in a corner, or against a wall though : the back must be at some distance due to the back radiation. Here is the placement that I use, in accordance with the recommendations of Axel Ridtahler, the inventor of the Ripole principle :
T
I'm not totally clear on what you are trying to achieve. Are you using full-range drivers because they seem easier to deal with (no crossovers to think about) or because you actually want a full-range driver for its unique characteristics (time/phase coherent, point source-ish)?
Are you trying to achieve a specific coverage pattern? I.e., do you have a restricted listening area you want to achieve high quality sound in (imaging and soundstaging) or is this really more of a general use/background system where you want good coverage wherever you go in the room?
Are the speakers all going to be up against a wall in the shelf unit or is it freestanding?