Back of fag packet suggests the OP can hit 115dB peaks with about 60W/channel. Would be interesting to try a known good 100W unit on that rig. Even with 120dB peaks that crown would be at less than 25% of max.
I can't be sure but I don't think that Crown was ever an advertiser in Stereophile.
Merely an observation.
The Putzeys article/philosophy espoused in Linear Audio (and apparently eleswhere) for extremely high levels of NFB might explain something here? Apparently, someone else in another thread indicated that this is not a unique view, and has been put forth before.
Pretty sure that other amps give an impression of "slam" - but don't ask me to list any, please. It's rather subjective.
_-_-
Merely an observation.
The Putzeys article/philosophy espoused in Linear Audio (and apparently eleswhere) for extremely high levels of NFB might explain something here? Apparently, someone else in another thread indicated that this is not a unique view, and has been put forth before.
Pretty sure that other amps give an impression of "slam" - but don't ask me to list any, please. It's rather subjective.
_-_-
It's interesting that the 'bias' pejorative seems to be reserved for the people who have a listening protocol that doesn't agree with someone one who uses meters and their own specific metered listening protocol.
Quite the opposite. People with knowledge and experience in sensory testing know that ALL humans have biases, conscious and unconscious- including people with knowledge and experience in sensory testing! It's how our brains work, and no amount of denial, sneering, or foot-stomping can change that. It's not pejorative, it's simple well-known and firmly established science.
Yes. "I heard that listeners suffer from bias, therefore I am immune to it", and "The effect went the other way to the sort of bias I expected, therefore it must be real". Neither is a valid explanation, they are no different to the old chestnut of "Even the wife noticed it from the kitchen".
In my own blind testing experiments I proved to myself several times that I do suffer from experimenter expectancy as badly as anyone else. It taught me to take everything with a pinch of salt, or better still just forget about it all and enjoy the music.
It would be interesting to plot Sterrhoeaphile review scores vs. advertising expenditure. 🙂 I don't think I've ever read a worse review than the Crown one.
On the other hand, you might well expect an amp of such extreme power to suffer from crossover distortion at low levels, which would sort of jive with the subjective impression of dull, grainy and unmusical. I wonder why they didn't test this.
In my own blind testing experiments I proved to myself several times that I do suffer from experimenter expectancy as badly as anyone else. It taught me to take everything with a pinch of salt, or better still just forget about it all and enjoy the music.
It would be interesting to plot Sterrhoeaphile review scores vs. advertising expenditure. 🙂 I don't think I've ever read a worse review than the Crown one.
On the other hand, you might well expect an amp of such extreme power to suffer from crossover distortion at low levels, which would sort of jive with the subjective impression of dull, grainy and unmusical. I wonder why they didn't test this.
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Maybe because those types of amps most of the times aren't used to play at a Watt. I can't remember a disco party where we all sat around a table, sipping some tea or whine or whatever, casually listening to the beats of this 1W background track.
I accept that there may be a bias, and that in fact Occam's razor might suggest this to be the most likely cause, but there may be something else at play. What is needed is an equally (technically) competent amplifier but of around 10% of the output of the Crown to be compared. Of course that would require a consensus on what a technically competent amplifier was, so doomed from the beginning.
But in the same way that a HiFi reviewer will never believe that a PA amp can sound wonderful, if you believe that 800W is needed to get slam then there is a very good case for just kicking back and enjoying big block power and torque.
1 Watt for the OP is close to 100dBA so I suspect he spends a LOT of time at or at less than this level. Personally I am very impressed that the noise floor is not an issue.
Yeah. Using this amp with big, high sensitivity speakers is like bolting a V8 onto your Segway. 🙂
No, you listen with your brain. that's where the signals from all your senses together with your memory is turned into perception.
So knowing what gear is on, makes your memory part of the perception chain and inescapably influences it.
Ears only testing means exactly that, no memory or other senses involved in the testing. I trust only my ears, not my brain.
Not quite a Segway and not quite a V8 but here you go nevertheless:
Meet The World?s Fastest Mobility Scooter: Video
Meet The World?s Fastest Mobility Scooter: Video
I'm from that era of the 70's 80's so will share some of my perceptions that stuck over time since then.
The first amps and mixers I used were kits we home built, say no more. We built our own speakers also. 🙂
I use many systems including the fully horn loaded JBL quad 4 ways. Racks of the Crown DC-300's, Amcron, Phase Linear, Soundcraft mixers.
The Crown and Amcron were always respected with reliability and delivered clean power. The Phase Linear were good but...
I was often asked to operate other peoples systems "mix only" no lugging as I did not blow them up. I mixed backwards from the outputs to the input trims by setting the outputs, groups, channel faders to zero and then initially mix the entire band with the input trim so there were no little red lights blinking and ignoring system hiss which was minimal in live anyway. I always got a dynamic punchy result by keeping headroom in the system and not trying to blow the windows and doors out of the building.
For myself my first amps were kits and speakers were home built, then I got a Rotel RA 1012, then in 1975 a Marantz 1200B, then 1976 Klipsch LaScala, then a Marantz 250M, then a Phase Linear 700 series II, The Phase Linear was disappointing, I then became an "attache case" live sound mixer leaving my LaScala at home doing just walk in mixing and suggesting speaker positioning. Then circa 1980 got a Yamaha B2X C2a for my LaScala.
As Max said you keep the good ones so the 1200B go with dads Klipsch Heresy and the, B2x C2a with my LaScala.
The Marantz 1200B seemed to have more power "punch" than the Phase Linear 700 series II on the LaScala which I used for pub & club gigs.
The B2x is ridiculous, it has twin old school transformers and compared to the 1200B was as if something was removed from the audio chain improving clarity yet the punch of the 1200B was retained. You have no idea of how loud it is until you try to talk to someone or go outside to check if the neighbours my be disturbed.
I think the power supply dumping current easily into the output stages has a lot to do with it.
Also, I noticed that careful time alignment of the speaker array improves the punch, transient response or the fast speed of the speakers.
For myself, I always prefered Horn loaded as they seemed faster and more realistic and also when there was no bass there was no bass where as reflex seem to invent bass that does not exist. This immediacy adds to the punch for me.
When setting up starting with the the kick drum I would notice if the system had good time alignment as when you get just in front of the kick drum and the drummer taps it gently there is a subsonic push in the air together with the click of the beater on the skin. So there is always a reference available for comparison with the output from the speakers.
I have found there is something missing with a lot of the modern amplifiers and the "punch" or realism is missing. The modern amps can sound very good and most people won't be aware of the differences however, I feel that in many of them only 10% of rated power is viable and beyond that it's like high altitude has affected their lungs.
I'm currently putting my new home system together with a pair of Pass Labs X350.5 driving a Pair of 2way Klipsch Jubilee and Ashly NE8800 as preamp.
This is my endeavour for a punchy fast realistic bass. I will create a virtual centre speaker in the middle of the screen.
I have already done in a friends 120 seat cinema with a pair of 3way Jubilee using good amps which are OK to 10% in my opinion.
I'm experimenting with folded horns for LFE. Not sure yet what amp I will finally drive the LFE with.
So the intangible "puchy" is something I think exists.
I think all the comments in this thread are valid from the individuals point of view and of course my new amps are going to be ideal 🙂
This is stuff I love to read. You stuffed your brain with a reference pattern from the real thing and you make note of the absolute time delay that can smear transients of these kind of instruments.
I believe you need really good slew rate first and then you need a super quick psu current delivery as fast as the signal demands. Heaps of caps will help. I have seen better results of your term slam when bigger trafos used than required like for 200W use 800VA Trafo as the energy stored in the caps will discharge in very short time and hence the sagging possibility.
These things aren't too tough to figure out, but nobody ever has the time and dogged perseverance to do so. Whatever "slam" is, get two amps, one with it, one without. Run the same signal through both, each into identical loads. Make a differential scope measurement between the two outputs. If they're the same, the amps are the same, regardless of what you think you hear. If they're different, investigate at what frequencies, how much and why. It may take different test signals and some circuit analysis, but there are no unobservable effects that affect the sound but can't be measured.
Fourier still eludes you?
"Slam" as an audiophile term is the creation of some magazine writers (British, mostly). It can be subjectively achieved with some EQ, where one can dial in "punchy."
SY is deeply skilled....i suggest friends that does not know who is SY
to pay some attention to Stuart.
He worked with amplifier for many years...he knows, deeply, about amplifiers.
regards,
Carlos
to pay some attention to Stuart.
He worked with amplifier for many years...he knows, deeply, about amplifiers.
regards,
Carlos
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