That is a very nice looking setup, but really impossible in my present situation. So yes, the 2-way cone approach currently seems most likely.
I might look at having more than one setting for bass extension, achieved either by switchable filters or else a sub-sat type arrangement where the sats can be used alone. It would be nice if things would get down to around 40hz at audible levels (close up, of course) when circumstances allow, but be capped when they don't - maybe 80hz would allow enough bass presence to avoid severe dissatisfaction, when forced to be considerate. Though of course it will depend on what decisions and compromises are made as the design comes together. (Music style is a little varied so not much of a guide: classical, rock, metal, folk, prog-rock, electronic/synth type stuff etc.)
Cheers,
Kev
Bigun, I think I'd be looking for secondary source variation with distance before I went suspecting the drivers.
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What is secondary source variation?
I have no suspicions about the drivers, they’re working really well.
I have no suspicions about the drivers, they’re working really well.
Theres a bass set up that is experimental but has a high chance of success to give you good 40Hz levels. It will do that without issues of room nodes and nulls. It offers the least leakage to your neighbour using dipole to prevent gross room pressurisation. Are you an experimenter?
Bigun, post #4 is an example of the secondary source variations I'm talking about. Room modes are another and may cause a difference when listening at different distances. Speaker related issues are also on the list.
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Indeed, there are deeper layers of complexity. I don’t know which have the largest influence but at a top level the physical separation of the drivers is still how I think about the cause of problem - afterall, if the drivers were coincident the secondary effects would be the same for both of them.
For a coax, diffraction, room modes and comb filtering will still change the sound with distance. The other thing you mention sounds crossover related in combination with a room mode, and that could also change with distance due to the room part of it.
With some things I am, though in the case of speaker design and building, my relative inexperience may not be a good basis for it; even implementing established methods is something of a learning curve at times.
So, I'd need to assess what my personal chances of success might be. Also if the direction and likely results were going to be appropriate to the situation as a whole; the world of audio seems quite prone to obsessions with concepts that can get out of hand, but here I'm looking for a balanced and practical solution.
Thats sensible. It would be practical to use the drivers you already have. Do you have any woofers at hand beside the little Scanspeak's if you want to fill in the bass?
Thanks for the thoughts!
I do have a pair of 10" scanspeak bass divers, too. They're far too big to be positioned with the mid-bass+high, so I'd not really intended to use them for this project, but whilst they aren't subwoofers I suppose if crossed to low enough (that they're hard to locate audibly) then they could still be positioned elsewhere and used as a kind of upper-subwoofer - for when the neighbors are out, or at least awake. I shall have to consider if they'd add enough to make it worthwhile.
That is partly because the little scanspeaks are surprisingly capable for bass 'if' at moderate SPL (and so excursion); which they would be in this application. They're excellent little things really, and the more I think this project through the more it becomes clear that (a) they could be almost ideal for it with some DSP and (b) it would be a real shame not to use them.
So perhaps there could be dual settings; the little scanspeaks supporting some tiny full-ranges would be pretty good alone for quiet listening. Then, for (rare) higher volume listening, they could be high-passed and become a satellite to the 10" bass drivers.
I do have a pair of 10" scanspeak bass divers, too. They're far too big to be positioned with the mid-bass+high, so I'd not really intended to use them for this project, but whilst they aren't subwoofers I suppose if crossed to low enough (that they're hard to locate audibly) then they could still be positioned elsewhere and used as a kind of upper-subwoofer - for when the neighbors are out, or at least awake. I shall have to consider if they'd add enough to make it worthwhile.
That is partly because the little scanspeaks are surprisingly capable for bass 'if' at moderate SPL (and so excursion); which they would be in this application. They're excellent little things really, and the more I think this project through the more it becomes clear that (a) they could be almost ideal for it with some DSP and (b) it would be a real shame not to use them.
So perhaps there could be dual settings; the little scanspeaks supporting some tiny full-ranges would be pretty good alone for quiet listening. Then, for (rare) higher volume listening, they could be high-passed and become a satellite to the 10" bass drivers.
I'm heading towards some ideas for this project; when I've got something worked out, I'll start new threads on the evolving designs.
But first I'd like to bring some reality to full-range/wide-range drivers, which I've not even heard before. So i've (hopefully) got a pair of markaudio Alpair 5.3 drivers on the way.
They are of course quite small but are going to be good for mid-tweeters if the project goes the WAW way. Or if not they shall also be great for making a superior mini-speaker (to replace the diabolical one in my portable radio) so I can't go wrong with them really.
But first I'd like to bring some reality to full-range/wide-range drivers, which I've not even heard before. So i've (hopefully) got a pair of markaudio Alpair 5.3 drivers on the way.
They are of course quite small but are going to be good for mid-tweeters if the project goes the WAW way. Or if not they shall also be great for making a superior mini-speaker (to replace the diabolical one in my portable radio) so I can't go wrong with them really.
This is good experimenting. I'm sure there's an application that they will be good for, but the full range crowd does seem to like Alpairs for their main system.
OB bass with the 10" pair via a ripole/SLOB could be good for 40Hz. Should reduce bass levels leaking to your neighbour.
Well, I just cannot help myself and need to recommend a pair (or a quad - https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...little-full-range-driver.379277/#post-6843512) of FaitalPro 3FE22s in 0.4 - 1 l per driver sealed box. The dual "Hydras" are just made for nearfield listening, very happy with those. And a subwoofer, of course. Now I use a 12" Magnat powered sub, but working on my own Ripole/SLOB nearfield unit to test the concept of near field open baffle bass. The applicaton is for those to be used in my listening corner in the living room until I can sneak in some proper LOUDspeakers to fill the whole room, so I will have to make some cools stands for the cubes and subwoofer ideally as an ottoman with a pillow on top🙂
Thanks for the thoughts on ripole subs; I wasn't even aware of them, though had run across slot loading (and obviously open baffle) before. A quick look around suggests that (as always) opinions are divided on their qualities, but they certainly have some interesting possibilities.
I can see that this is yet another thing to research and test, though I'll probably start with the higher-range/main speakers first. Whilst things might be done to reduce the effects of it, significant bass is always going to be problematic, so i shall leave that for later.
Thanks also pelanj for the 3FE22 recommendation. There aren't many suppliers here but they do exist, and are selling for very modest prices.
Cheers,
kev
I can see that this is yet another thing to research and test, though I'll probably start with the higher-range/main speakers first. Whilst things might be done to reduce the effects of it, significant bass is always going to be problematic, so i shall leave that for later.
Thanks also pelanj for the 3FE22 recommendation. There aren't many suppliers here but they do exist, and are selling for very modest prices.
Cheers,
kev
Thanks, yes they do seem to have a fair reputation; it is very likely that they'll do well in a couple of applications that I'm interested in, so certainly won't be a wasted purchase. Either way, I'm sure they'll be great fun to test.
Perhaps if they impress, I might also be tempted to try some bigger versions later on, either as true full-range or else with support from very low bass (subwoofer territory|) and/or very high highs.
Cheers,
kev
Is that wise sir?
Ignoring bass appears to be a major planning flaw. A good frequency and impulse output of a speaker is fundamental. Poor bass sounds awful on many recordings. Output down to 40Hz is plenty for most music but the SPL needs to be up there. Your issue of bass leakage can be mitigated. Particularity with your near field interest and using progressive designs, physics and sims.
Addressing the major deficit in your design is likely to yield the best gains for the least effort.
Are you possibly heading down the usual trap of getting stuck in a preordained route without an open minded appraisal of the best fit?
It is okay, I shall certainly not be ignoring the bass, I shall simply leave it until after I've heard and tested the mini alpair - both by itself and in various WAW configurations - before I make any decisions on what bass support is actually needed.
It should also be remembered that many times I won't be able to use properly loud and deep bass 'whatever' the method of producing it. Whilst things might be done to improve leakage somewhat, such as your kind suggestions, more bass will always have more tendency to travel and cause vibrations than less bass. So for this project the bass implementation will need to be pretty flexible in its own right, allowing more or less to be reproduced according to different circumstances.
So far, the main options under consideration will include the tiny alpair plus small scanspeaks with or without a sub/low-range woofer. The latter could be optional or else could be used all the time but moderated (when necessary) with DSP. If I do end up having the 10" drivers permanently running in the system then I might also consider using a bigger widerange (rather than the small one plus small woofers).
This really is the way I like to design things; i.e. don't lock myself into final decisions too early, but initially consider a bundle of possibilities and then narrow them down through various forms of evaluation and testing. I shall probably opt for an an actively crossed and bi/tri-amped approach too, likely using software crossovers and DSP, to make implementing different configurations easier and extend the testing and tweaking even beyond that of the physical build.
It should also be remembered that many times I won't be able to use properly loud and deep bass 'whatever' the method of producing it. Whilst things might be done to improve leakage somewhat, such as your kind suggestions, more bass will always have more tendency to travel and cause vibrations than less bass. So for this project the bass implementation will need to be pretty flexible in its own right, allowing more or less to be reproduced according to different circumstances.
So far, the main options under consideration will include the tiny alpair plus small scanspeaks with or without a sub/low-range woofer. The latter could be optional or else could be used all the time but moderated (when necessary) with DSP. If I do end up having the 10" drivers permanently running in the system then I might also consider using a bigger widerange (rather than the small one plus small woofers).
This really is the way I like to design things; i.e. don't lock myself into final decisions too early, but initially consider a bundle of possibilities and then narrow them down through various forms of evaluation and testing. I shall probably opt for an an actively crossed and bi/tri-amped approach too, likely using software crossovers and DSP, to make implementing different configurations easier and extend the testing and tweaking even beyond that of the physical build.
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Looks like a fun and experimental approach. Using software crossovers fits with that. Are you going to try OB and boxes as part of your testing?
Yes, I shall try OB for each of the drivers involved; I've no predetermined decisions on what combination of boxes/baffles will be used.
Anyway, the little alpair 5.3 drivers arrived, I thought that they might make the 15W/8530k01 drivers look undersized as woofers, but actually the 15Ws are still considerably chunkier, heavier and bigger so the pairing doesn't seem too bad for a compact speaker.
Though (in a relative sense) the two together are still reasonably large for being 'very' close up to the head. Having now seen them together in reality I suspect they'll feel better at a slightly larger distance - such as might suit a desktop arrangement for instance.
I shall also be keen to hear the little alpairs by themselves. I'm not imagining that they will be big enough (for my taste) to cross-over to subwoofers alone, but i don't really know; either way it will be interesting to see how far they do go. If I like what i hear then it might encourage me to try some bigger full-ranges instead of the small+15w combo.
Very much looking forward to this now; I realise it might be old-hat for many on here but I've always been a conventional multi-way person until now, so it is a voyage of discovery for me. Though sadly it may be a bit slow because i don't have a great deal of time outside work currently.
Anyway, the little alpair 5.3 drivers arrived, I thought that they might make the 15W/8530k01 drivers look undersized as woofers, but actually the 15Ws are still considerably chunkier, heavier and bigger so the pairing doesn't seem too bad for a compact speaker.
Though (in a relative sense) the two together are still reasonably large for being 'very' close up to the head. Having now seen them together in reality I suspect they'll feel better at a slightly larger distance - such as might suit a desktop arrangement for instance.
I shall also be keen to hear the little alpairs by themselves. I'm not imagining that they will be big enough (for my taste) to cross-over to subwoofers alone, but i don't really know; either way it will be interesting to see how far they do go. If I like what i hear then it might encourage me to try some bigger full-ranges instead of the small+15w combo.
Very much looking forward to this now; I realise it might be old-hat for many on here but I've always been a conventional multi-way person until now, so it is a voyage of discovery for me. Though sadly it may be a bit slow because i don't have a great deal of time outside work currently.
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