Hi Everybody
This is my first project & I'am a newbie who started learning to build his own speakers from just a few months ago, 😀
well this is a request for an advice to help me repare a big mistake I did on subwoofers build, this is mostly a PA components based project for use in an average room mostly for loud music listening with minimum distorsion)
My Components are hereinafter (4 towers + 2 subs) :
Amplifier : Kempton 2403 (designed by FBT ) 3 channels PA Amplifier : 2 stereo channels Class A/B : 600 watts per channel @4 ohm (with built in high pass active filter)
1 Subwoofer Mono Channel Line Class H : 1200 watts @ 4 ohm ( I guess low passed at about 280HZ according to my voltage measurements)
under construction : 2 DIY Stereo Towers (50Liters / tuned 55HZ ) : 2 x FaitalPro 10PR300 + 2 HF100 Comp Drivers + 2 STH100 Faital Horns
+ 2 DIY small Stereo Towers ( 34 Liters / Tuned 50 HZ ) :10' 100watts Chinese woofers, I'll replace later+ 2 HF100 Comp Drivers + 2 STH100 Faital Horns
+ under construction : 2 SUBS x Faitalpro 12FH510 ( 60Liters / Bass Reflex / L port / tuned to 45HZ actually - & can be modified for lower tuning
well the big issue is with the faitals 12FH510 the seller told me they'll produce a big amount of bass which is quite true in a certain way, except, the fact that they start to make distorsion very fast,may be exceeding their xmax (7.5mm)
I guess the cabinets aren't suited for them, some friends suggested a horn loaded instead of a bass reflex, & a high pass @50HZ
I've tested them instead in the small towers of 34 liters & the sound gets more even & clear, even to the mid range, so I decided to move them to the small towers & buy decent subs with higher excursion ,
All I can do for now is to stick to the 60 Liters subwoofer cabinets I have & get a 15" that can go as low as possible with decent SPL.
( Daytons not available here/ for Eminence LAB15 : I'll have to wait to April/May,..& the list of unattainable good references is long, & no way to use a car sub, All I can get are B&C 15"
Sorry for the long introduction, my question is which one is better from these two, I'm not looking for fancy SPL I need it to hit as low HZ as possible with safe excursion, & without sacrificing too much on the (50HZ-100HZ Region
I've attached screenshots of some simulations with Win ISD with my 60L cabinets
I used the advisable tuning ( 40HZ for 15TBW100 / 29HZ for 15BG100)
so please ignore the projects Names at top left they mention a wrong tuning HZ
B&C : 15TBW100 (Red Curve)
B&C : 15BG100 (Black Curve)
- Starting with the Transfer function magnitude, I understand this is about linearity, but I can't tell if I have to rely more on this curve for a good judgement about lower frequencies response or on the SPL Curve ? 15BG100 seems to have much more output , but in the MAX SPL curve ( 600watts the amp can handle) things are different : (15TBW100 hits higher down to about 32HZ, then 15BG100 takes the lead.
- Excursion wise 15BG100 runs much safer near to 20HZ.
Note : I did another simulation by tuning the 15TBW100 down to 29HZ (much lower than its FS), & the two curves are superposing (SPL & excursion) with an advantage to the 15TBW100 at the higher bass region.
don't know if this is advisable to do in practice 😕
please anyone having experiences with these drivers can help 😱
these are my first DIY subs & I don't want to mess it up one more time.🙁
This is my first project & I'am a newbie who started learning to build his own speakers from just a few months ago, 😀
well this is a request for an advice to help me repare a big mistake I did on subwoofers build, this is mostly a PA components based project for use in an average room mostly for loud music listening with minimum distorsion)
My Components are hereinafter (4 towers + 2 subs) :
Amplifier : Kempton 2403 (designed by FBT ) 3 channels PA Amplifier : 2 stereo channels Class A/B : 600 watts per channel @4 ohm (with built in high pass active filter)
1 Subwoofer Mono Channel Line Class H : 1200 watts @ 4 ohm ( I guess low passed at about 280HZ according to my voltage measurements)
under construction : 2 DIY Stereo Towers (50Liters / tuned 55HZ ) : 2 x FaitalPro 10PR300 + 2 HF100 Comp Drivers + 2 STH100 Faital Horns
+ 2 DIY small Stereo Towers ( 34 Liters / Tuned 50 HZ ) :10' 100watts Chinese woofers, I'll replace later+ 2 HF100 Comp Drivers + 2 STH100 Faital Horns
+ under construction : 2 SUBS x Faitalpro 12FH510 ( 60Liters / Bass Reflex / L port / tuned to 45HZ actually - & can be modified for lower tuning
well the big issue is with the faitals 12FH510 the seller told me they'll produce a big amount of bass which is quite true in a certain way, except, the fact that they start to make distorsion very fast,may be exceeding their xmax (7.5mm)
I guess the cabinets aren't suited for them, some friends suggested a horn loaded instead of a bass reflex, & a high pass @50HZ
I've tested them instead in the small towers of 34 liters & the sound gets more even & clear, even to the mid range, so I decided to move them to the small towers & buy decent subs with higher excursion ,
All I can do for now is to stick to the 60 Liters subwoofer cabinets I have & get a 15" that can go as low as possible with decent SPL.
( Daytons not available here/ for Eminence LAB15 : I'll have to wait to April/May,..& the list of unattainable good references is long, & no way to use a car sub, All I can get are B&C 15"
Sorry for the long introduction, my question is which one is better from these two, I'm not looking for fancy SPL I need it to hit as low HZ as possible with safe excursion, & without sacrificing too much on the (50HZ-100HZ Region
I've attached screenshots of some simulations with Win ISD with my 60L cabinets
I used the advisable tuning ( 40HZ for 15TBW100 / 29HZ for 15BG100)
so please ignore the projects Names at top left they mention a wrong tuning HZ
B&C : 15TBW100 (Red Curve)
B&C : 15BG100 (Black Curve)
- Starting with the Transfer function magnitude, I understand this is about linearity, but I can't tell if I have to rely more on this curve for a good judgement about lower frequencies response or on the SPL Curve ? 15BG100 seems to have much more output , but in the MAX SPL curve ( 600watts the amp can handle) things are different : (15TBW100 hits higher down to about 32HZ, then 15BG100 takes the lead.
- Excursion wise 15BG100 runs much safer near to 20HZ.
Note : I did another simulation by tuning the 15TBW100 down to 29HZ (much lower than its FS), & the two curves are superposing (SPL & excursion) with an advantage to the 15TBW100 at the higher bass region.
don't know if this is advisable to do in practice 😕
please anyone having experiences with these drivers can help 😱
these are my first DIY subs & I don't want to mess it up one more time.🙁
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There's a lot to learn in audio... but the TBW is the better driver overall.
Achieving enough port area to prevent port compression is sometimes tricky with small boxes and high power drivers. The exact curves aren't very important once you see what the room does to them.
They'll be a big improvement over the 12's. Enjoy the journey. They most likely won't be your last subs.
Achieving enough port area to prevent port compression is sometimes tricky with small boxes and high power drivers. The exact curves aren't very important once you see what the room does to them.
They'll be a big improvement over the 12's. Enjoy the journey. They most likely won't be your last subs.
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First thing you have to understand is the enclosure must be sized and tuned correctly for a driver and with a reflex design the port volume must be appropriate for the output the driver will produce, so larger ports are required for higher SPL. With PA speakers and modern drivers that means the the ports will be quite large and since the port volume has to be added to the required enclosure volume for the driver the resulting cabs can end up being quite large. Mixing random drivers with random enclosures rarely works out well.
With that all sorted, a steep high pass filter must be engaged just below port tuning, the drivers simply cannot be exposed to high power below box tuning as they will be easily damaged. If you want more lowend extension the box has to be tuned lower... which means even longer and bigger ports, or you might opt to use a sealed design with EQ boost as that can usually be done with a much smaller enclosure.
When you are modeling a driver in WinISD you have to keep an eye on cone excursion and port air velocity, use the Signal tab to enter a desired power level and then check cone excursion and port velocity, ignore the Max SPL graph it's technically impossible to achieve. If air speed goes off the chart port size has to increase, you want max port air velocity to be around 17-20m/s. You can also add a high pass filter to see how that affects output, the "perfect" high pass produces a double hump graph with both peaks at the drivers xmax.
With that all sorted, a steep high pass filter must be engaged just below port tuning, the drivers simply cannot be exposed to high power below box tuning as they will be easily damaged. If you want more lowend extension the box has to be tuned lower... which means even longer and bigger ports, or you might opt to use a sealed design with EQ boost as that can usually be done with a much smaller enclosure.
When you are modeling a driver in WinISD you have to keep an eye on cone excursion and port air velocity, use the Signal tab to enter a desired power level and then check cone excursion and port velocity, ignore the Max SPL graph it's technically impossible to achieve. If air speed goes off the chart port size has to increase, you want max port air velocity to be around 17-20m/s. You can also add a high pass filter to see how that affects output, the "perfect" high pass produces a double hump graph with both peaks at the drivers xmax.
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Thank You
I Almost forgot about Room Gain, unfortunately I have no software skills or knowledge to simulate it, & no Impedance/SPL pro measuring kit to get real FRD files for response curves in my room, All my judgements are based on WinISD simulations, & your precious advices
I still believe the 15TBW is more attractive for its higher displacement air volume, XMAX threshold, & power handling & still want to tune it lower, like the 15BG100 ( around 29HZ) don't know if it is duable, many statements that is not advisable, still can't understand why not ?
this way I will have a little Xmax trenspassing below 30HZ & mostly can ignore the high pass filtering to protect the drivers + more SPL at the low FREQs.
Concerning the port, it is build this way (attached picture) & it is actually 39x10cm (about 45HZ) remember it is originally designed for 12" faitals & I still can modify it to 4x Tube ports for lower tuning & lower air velocity, I'll attach simulation captures later.
Thanks
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Dear Conanski
thank you, that is exactly the point that makes me hesitating between the two Drivers :
- Actually the box has a big port on it : 39x10CM that I can modify for much lower Tuning, which I'm planning to do with 4 Tubes & attached you can find simulations for the two Drivers/Cabinets air velocity comparison.
- I'm trying to find the best solution without using a high pass filtering , I think I have two choices :
- 15BG100 has almost no need for high pass since it gets a little overexcursion near 20HZ, & it hits higher at the lower frequencies, although it has less power handling than the 15TBW100 ... not a big concern since for two drivers my amp can deliver a max of 600 watts RMS per Driver.
- 15TBW100 is a better Driver overall, still , If I tuned it lower than its FS I mean 29HZ instead of 40HZ, I'll get almost the same response as the 15BG100, with same excursion & same air velocity (in theory).
what would be the effects of 29HZ tuning of the 15TBW100 ? on the graphics it shows it act almost like the 15BG100, if there is no constraints then I'll choose the 15 TBW100 with no hesitation. costwise, it is the cheaper option here.
thank you, that is exactly the point that makes me hesitating between the two Drivers :
- Actually the box has a big port on it : 39x10CM that I can modify for much lower Tuning, which I'm planning to do with 4 Tubes & attached you can find simulations for the two Drivers/Cabinets air velocity comparison.
- I'm trying to find the best solution without using a high pass filtering , I think I have two choices :
- 15BG100 has almost no need for high pass since it gets a little overexcursion near 20HZ, & it hits higher at the lower frequencies, although it has less power handling than the 15TBW100 ... not a big concern since for two drivers my amp can deliver a max of 600 watts RMS per Driver.
- 15TBW100 is a better Driver overall, still , If I tuned it lower than its FS I mean 29HZ instead of 40HZ, I'll get almost the same response as the 15BG100, with same excursion & same air velocity (in theory).
what would be the effects of 29HZ tuning of the 15TBW100 ? on the graphics it shows it act almost like the 15BG100, if there is no constraints then I'll choose the 15 TBW100 with no hesitation. costwise, it is the cheaper option here.
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No problem at all tuning to 29hz. It's all about output potential. In this case you already have a clear goal for maximum low end extension over spl.
TBW is cheaper? Your choice is made. Very linear motor and suspension.
TBW is cheaper? Your choice is made. Very linear motor and suspension.
That is needlessly playing russian roulette at high power levels, it just takes 1 subsonic accident to launch the cone across the room.
The TBW is the better driver, it's a new design containing a lot of refinements learned over the years so that is the driver to use.
Yes it is a bit cheaper ..the difference is not considerable (10-13 $ equivalent ..including taxes)
Thank you
I trust your judgement, I'm going to look for the TBW at the local B&C distributor ASAP
regadring Xmax issue, all the simulations I've attached are at 600 watts, that's the worst case scenario with the max Amp power I can get, in practice I would never play music or watch movies in a small/ medium Room at that sound level, neither boosting the 20HZ at the DSP. 🙂
Tuning low a high power tolerant speaker & playing maximum at half the power threshold , may be less, that is my plan.🙂