T-Amp...
... Yes, the T-Amp is making waves = good stuff.
What I am trying to do is build something better ... trying to find that magic combination of Class-D amp and power supply.
... Yes, the T-Amp is making waves = good stuff.
What I am trying to do is build something better ... trying to find that magic combination of Class-D amp and power supply.
Spasticteapot said:
When you say "quite good", do you mean almost as good, better, or different? What kind of T-amp was it?
Re: re: comparisons with suggestions ...
Power supply capability is definitely a place to tweak. Since the power supply rejection ratio is pretty low on these things.
I wonder whether it could be the lack of detail like its been cut off sharply instead of rounded off?
FastEddy said:
Power supply capability is definitely a place to tweak. Since the power supply rejection ratio is pretty low on these things.
I wonder whether it could be the lack of detail like its been cut off sharply instead of rounded off?
Yeahhh, I've seen people moaning about that. It's not something I've experienced with the class-d amps that I know. Chalk it up to vendor myth or whatever.
classd4sure said:
So classd4sure, what is your experience with class D in comparison with linear amps?
I don't know. I probably never heard a superb linear amp, no one I know is rich enough to have one. So the class D I play with these days is alot better than anything I"ve ever heard.
I don't think you can really compare some sort of commercial receiver or amp, no matter how good the brand name, and regardless of class, with a very capable DIY amp that had alot of
TLC.
I think if you can you just really have to try one of the better ones out there and see what you think. I'd be interested in hearing about it too. The lesser ones out there can be decent.. but may fall short.
I don't think you can really compare some sort of commercial receiver or amp, no matter how good the brand name, and regardless of class, with a very capable DIY amp that had alot of
TLC.
I think if you can you just really have to try one of the better ones out there and see what you think. I'd be interested in hearing about it too. The lesser ones out there can be decent.. but may fall short.
classd4sure said:
Can you mention some brand and models that most people think are superb but you don't? I sounds like you've listened you quite a few, I'm sure some models should ring a bell.
still ...
... there seems to be room for improvements.
My guess is that it is simply a matter that the PS & caps are either not large enough or bright enough or just lack something original in design.
I'm sure it isn't simply a matter of filtering off the power line noise or just adding capacitance. Might be that someone will resort to old technology like maybe a tube rectified PS or something from radio technology that solves this.
I have head it, running a switching amp for extended periods, there is something that can be called "fatigue" like an engine running a little too lean ...
Right now after several hours running a Panasonic XR70 at modest levels I don't hear it, but yesterday, same setup, but at extended high listening levels it certainly showed up ... and it is measurable ... pink noise generator >>=>> sound pressure level after two hours of load play ( ... swear to G.. its true ) down maybe 1 to 2 db.... and I'm pretty sure it ain't the speakers
🙁
... there seems to be room for improvements.
My guess is that it is simply a matter that the PS & caps are either not large enough or bright enough or just lack something original in design.
I'm sure it isn't simply a matter of filtering off the power line noise or just adding capacitance. Might be that someone will resort to old technology like maybe a tube rectified PS or something from radio technology that solves this.
I have head it, running a switching amp for extended periods, there is something that can be called "fatigue" like an engine running a little too lean ...
Right now after several hours running a Panasonic XR70 at modest levels I don't hear it, but yesterday, same setup, but at extended high listening levels it certainly showed up ... and it is measurable ... pink noise generator >>=>> sound pressure level after two hours of load play ( ... swear to G.. its true ) down maybe 1 to 2 db.... and I'm pretty sure it ain't the speakers
🙁
Hm... at extended high listening levels, anything is going to get tiring, right? Comfy levels I have no problem with all day long, if I'm in the mood for listening.
Another thing that's tiring is "aaawwww I heard all this stuff already".
Bad recordings...
It's probably all made worse the more you turn it up, and * age?
Sorry I don't buy into this "d-amps lack decay" stuff or it's tiring.. let's please have a look at your wiring and layout with statements like that too shall we, I'd rather see that than what CD was heard with whatever room acoustics and absolute porality. Keep it real.
Another thing that's tiring is "aaawwww I heard all this stuff already".
Bad recordings...
It's probably all made worse the more you turn it up, and * age?
Sorry I don't buy into this "d-amps lack decay" stuff or it's tiring.. let's please have a look at your wiring and layout with statements like that too shall we, I'd rather see that than what CD was heard with whatever room acoustics and absolute porality. Keep it real.
I'm not knocking Class-D ...
... and I'm not talking about a recording as source. I can duplicate the "fatigue" factor with pink noise generator or signal generator after extended load play ... or driving a dummy speaker load with extended pink noise @ around 3 db down from maximum power ... takes about an hour to observe the symptoms.
And I appreciate Class-D efficiencies and plan on building several more in addition to more purchases of production types. I just want to know if there are ways to remove this not quite ellusive problem.
" ... Another thing that's tiring is "aaawwww I heard all this stuff already". ..."
If others notice it ... then there may be something to it ...
... and I'm not talking about a recording as source. I can duplicate the "fatigue" factor with pink noise generator or signal generator after extended load play ... or driving a dummy speaker load with extended pink noise @ around 3 db down from maximum power ... takes about an hour to observe the symptoms.
And I appreciate Class-D efficiencies and plan on building several more in addition to more purchases of production types. I just want to know if there are ways to remove this not quite ellusive problem.
" ... Another thing that's tiring is "aaawwww I heard all this stuff already". ..."
If others notice it ... then there may be something to it ...
Re: I'm not knocking Class-D ...
Absolutely, no dispute there. Like I said though, let's see the schematic, wiring, layout, etc.
Also, I'd fatigue quickly listening to a pink noise gen. or pure sine wave too.
I'm not convinced it's not user error, design error, or even just wanting to see a problem where one doesn't exist.
I know you're not trying to put the class down, but I don't find much substance to the symptom yet.
FastEddy said:..
If others notice it ... then there may be something to it ...
Absolutely, no dispute there. Like I said though, let's see the schematic, wiring, layout, etc.
Also, I'd fatigue quickly listening to a pink noise gen. or pure sine wave too.
I'm not convinced it's not user error, design error, or even just wanting to see a problem where one doesn't exist.
I know you're not trying to put the class down, but I don't find much substance to the symptom yet.
It really would be nice to read more specifics rather than just emotional talk without specifics where nobody can even try to get the same setup and see if they hear similarly. This was really the intent for beginning this thread.
I would have to ...
... set up a specific test, and produce pictures w/ circles & arrows on the back to make this case ...
" ... let's see the schematic, wiring, layout, etc. ... I'm not convinced it's not user error, design error, or even just wanting to see a problem where one doesn't exist. ..."
Check out the Panasonic XR70 for the circuit diagrams ... you will have as much luck as I in finding these = none. As for some other amp / maker, well lets find one and I'll get it and see what the problems / symptoms / results might be ... if any ...
" ... Also, I'd fatigue quickly listening to a pink noise gen. or pure sine wave too. ..."
You don't think I set around listening to tones or pink noise all afternoon, do you? ... Heck no, I make my wife do it ... 😱
.....
" ... It really would be nice to read more specifics rather than just emotional talk without specifics where nobody can even try to get the same setup and see if they hear similarly. ..."
Well, again, steer me to the specific amp you guys want to test and I'll see about getting it and trying some tests ... complete amps only, please (my eyes are too old for more resistor ID and/or tiny solder jobs).
I have access to my own test equipment and may be able to get the local college to run some parallel tests as well.
... set up a specific test, and produce pictures w/ circles & arrows on the back to make this case ...
" ... let's see the schematic, wiring, layout, etc. ... I'm not convinced it's not user error, design error, or even just wanting to see a problem where one doesn't exist. ..."
Check out the Panasonic XR70 for the circuit diagrams ... you will have as much luck as I in finding these = none. As for some other amp / maker, well lets find one and I'll get it and see what the problems / symptoms / results might be ... if any ...
" ... Also, I'd fatigue quickly listening to a pink noise gen. or pure sine wave too. ..."
You don't think I set around listening to tones or pink noise all afternoon, do you? ... Heck no, I make my wife do it ... 😱
.....
" ... It really would be nice to read more specifics rather than just emotional talk without specifics where nobody can even try to get the same setup and see if they hear similarly. ..."
Well, again, steer me to the specific amp you guys want to test and I'll see about getting it and trying some tests ... complete amps only, please (my eyes are too old for more resistor ID and/or tiny solder jobs).
I have access to my own test equipment and may be able to get the local college to run some parallel tests as well.
Re: I would have to ...
I didn't think you were over 70.😱
But testing some Audio Research liner amps and the UCD180 ot TACT amp would prove interesting.
FastEddy said:
...
Well, again, steer me to the specific amp you guys want to test and I'll see about getting it and trying some tests ... complete amps only, please (my eyes are too old for more resistor ID and/or tiny solder jobs).
I have access to my own test equipment and may be able to get the local college to run some parallel tests as well.
I didn't think you were over 70.😱
But testing some Audio Research liner amps and the UCD180 ot TACT amp would prove interesting.
Re: I would have to ...
Hi
you have just to phone to a Panasonic Service Center and they will sell you a service manual ( i've the saxr45 one)
about testing , rather than listening to commercial music , its very instructive to listen to your own live records , like familiar scenes ( in my case , for example , my wife and children talking and playing in my lounge )
you can easily hear the difference between a musical and an accurate amp
a lot of linear amps have a "thick" midrange and , when compared to UCD , UCD seems in the thin side
Alain
FastEddy said:...
" ... let's see the schematic, wiring, layout, etc. ... I'm not convinced it's not user error, design error, or even just wanting to see a problem where one doesn't exist. ..."
Check out the Panasonic XR70 for the circuit diagrams ... you will have as much luck as I in finding these = none. As for some other amp / maker, well lets find one and I'll get it and see what the problems / symptoms / results might be ... if any ...
.....
" ... It really would be nice to read more specifics rather than just emotional talk without specifics where nobody can even try to get the same setup and see if they hear similarly. ..."
Hi
you have just to phone to a Panasonic Service Center and they will sell you a service manual ( i've the saxr45 one)
about testing , rather than listening to commercial music , its very instructive to listen to your own live records , like familiar scenes ( in my case , for example , my wife and children talking and playing in my lounge )
you can easily hear the difference between a musical and an accurate amp
a lot of linear amps have a "thick" midrange and , when compared to UCD , UCD seems in the thin side
Alain
Re: Re: I would have to ...
Alian, which did you think was closer to the original sound?
rha61 said:
Alian, which did you think was closer to the original sound?
Re: Re: Re: I would have to ...
the UCD
it's the best amp i've ever hear on this kind of test ( my UCD has a very worked power supply )
a thick midrange is nice when listening to music
Alain
soongsc said:
the UCD
it's the best amp i've ever hear on this kind of test ( my UCD has a very worked power supply )
a thick midrange is nice when listening to music
Alain
Re: Re: Re: Re: I would have to ...
my UCD has a very worked power supply
Dear Mr Alain
1) could you confirm that UcD are quite sensible to the quality of the PS ?
2) is it possible to get some details about your solution for the PS?
a thick midrange is nice when listening to music
do you mean that UcD fails short on listening pleasure ?
This is important to me.
I am always looking for pleasure when listening as I have already an unpleasant job.
Thank you very much indeed.
Kind regards,
beppe
rha61 said:
my UCD has a very worked power supply
Dear Mr Alain
1) could you confirm that UcD are quite sensible to the quality of the PS ?
2) is it possible to get some details about your solution for the PS?
a thick midrange is nice when listening to music
do you mean that UcD fails short on listening pleasure ?
This is important to me.
I am always looking for pleasure when listening as I have already an unpleasant job.
Thank you very much indeed.
Kind regards,
beppe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I would have to ...
Hi Beppe
in my experience , class D amps are very sensible to the psu quality
my UCD amp has 2 separated PSU , one with Sikorel caps for the power stages and one for the buffer stages
the 2 have pi filter ( CLC ) and r-core transformers with electrostatic screen ( some said that the pi filter in the power stage may induce oscillations , i've no scope to verifiy that , but it works great and the result is amazing )
because the UCD is accurate , you will have great pleasure with good recordings but if the recording quality is bad , then ... :-(
Alain
beppe61 said:
Hi Beppe
in my experience , class D amps are very sensible to the psu quality
my UCD amp has 2 separated PSU , one with Sikorel caps for the power stages and one for the buffer stages
the 2 have pi filter ( CLC ) and r-core transformers with electrostatic screen ( some said that the pi filter in the power stage may induce oscillations , i've no scope to verifiy that , but it works great and the result is amazing )
because the UCD is accurate , you will have great pleasure with good recordings but if the recording quality is bad , then ... :-(
Alain
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I would have to ...
Thank you Alain.
Extremely kind and valuable advice.
Have you used UcD 700 modules?
I understand they are the only ones to have splitted PS for the buffer and the power stages.
I do not know if this is feasible with UcD 400, the module I am aiming at.
Kind regards,
beppe
rha61 said:
Thank you Alain.
Extremely kind and valuable advice.
Have you used UcD 700 modules?
I understand they are the only ones to have splitted PS for the buffer and the power stages.
I do not know if this is feasible with UcD 400, the module I am aiming at.
Kind regards,
beppe
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