Hi,
Certain on its own would have done nicely...It's a pleonasm to say you're 100% certain.
But yes, I couldn't resist it anyway. 😉
You're welcome anytime...Feel free to send me an e-mail through the forum, Jan.
Cheers,😉
EDIT: SY would rather have us drink wine, I s'pose.
Certain on its own would have done nicely...It's a pleonasm to say you're 100% certain.
But yes, I couldn't resist it anyway. 😉
You're welcome anytime...Feel free to send me an e-mail through the forum, Jan.
Cheers,😉
EDIT: SY would rather have us drink wine, I s'pose.
Hi,
LOL...
As subtle as my Tolstoi line...Well done indeed.
Cheers, 😉
EDIT:...Too fast too, huh?
LOL...
As subtle as my Tolstoi line...Well done indeed.
Cheers, 😉
EDIT:...Too fast too, huh?
Peter Daniel said:
Peter, I agree with your reasoning, which reasononing grounds why I give so-called subjective reports (call them reviews) a certain validity. I once asked a member on this forum to list for me what he felt were better and worse capacitors, sound-wise, and his list corresponded with mine. I wasn't surprised by the coincidence.
fdegrove said:
Frank, I agree that performance parameters of individual components can be measured, and that these components can be distinguished by these measurements. Heck, the components you mention---Vishays and ptfe capacitors---were developed largely for military use, ie, for better overall performance of the circuits in which they are placed (leading to the banal inference that these components would similarly improve audio circuits, electrons being electrons). That being said, I am unaware of a measurement or measuring device that can pinpoint the difference Vishays and ptfe capacitors make in an audio circuit, once they're plugged into that circuit, that is. Frank, do you know of such measurement?
Milspec component specifications generally refer to reliability in harsh environmental conditions (temperature, humidity, shocks). The actual electrical specs like tan-delta, noise, etc are generally not so important as milspec equipment is usually heavily overdimensioned anyway.
But having a critical component fail, say in the middle of a dogfight or while trying to outshoot an enemy tank can ruin your entire day.
Jan Didden
But having a critical component fail, say in the middle of a dogfight or while trying to outshoot an enemy tank can ruin your entire day.
Jan Didden
Hi,
Military AND aerospace IMO...Which are closely related as far as the military goes...
I think where these components stand out from the 'crowd" is that, other than being tough as nails under all kinds of circumstances, is that both come closer to the theoretical ideal component.
The PTFE cap is closer to the ideal C and the Vishay resistor (let's take a S102 BF) is closer to the ideal R.
So, what you need to look at from an audio POV is where "ordinary" components deviate from this ideal: parasitic inductance, DA, magnetic endcaps, etc.
All of which can be readily measured, some manufacturers will even state averages on the specsheets.
Not that I'm aware of, no.
Cheers,😉
Military AND aerospace IMO...Which are closely related as far as the military goes...
I think where these components stand out from the 'crowd" is that, other than being tough as nails under all kinds of circumstances, is that both come closer to the theoretical ideal component.
The PTFE cap is closer to the ideal C and the Vishay resistor (let's take a S102 BF) is closer to the ideal R.
So, what you need to look at from an audio POV is where "ordinary" components deviate from this ideal: parasitic inductance, DA, magnetic endcaps, etc.
All of which can be readily measured, some manufacturers will even state averages on the specsheets.
Not that I'm aware of, no.
Cheers,😉
fdegrove said:
Yes, those components are designed for overall more accurate---ie, less distorted---electrical throughput or operating. I've had several conversations with the chief design engineer at Component Research Corp in Santa Monica about their capacitors (CRC is a large military/aerospace supplier). He told me, in his professional judgment---derived, as it was, from extensive testing---teflon capacitors are more electronically accurate than capacitors using any other dielectric. He also told me he knows of no other dielectric besting teflon on the accuracy parameter. "Accuracy," here, is as you said gauged by reference to ideal C.
All I'm saying is that if Peter (and some others) would take some time to do some actual scientifically valid testing of various experiments, then some of us would be more inclined to try them.
As it is, some of the results are very, very hard to explain by means of the laws of physics.
I think some of what Peter is doing is kewl (there is nothing wrong with trying things) but unfortunately there is no way to tell whether any of his experiments have actually found anything other than placebo effect.
And yes, a few posts back, Peter demanded that I do the tests myself, knowing full well that I don't have the budget for the exotic components that he is using. He has the resources to do it, but he apparently won't.
As it is, some of the results are very, very hard to explain by means of the laws of physics.
I think some of what Peter is doing is kewl (there is nothing wrong with trying things) but unfortunately there is no way to tell whether any of his experiments have actually found anything other than placebo effect.
And yes, a few posts back, Peter demanded that I do the tests myself, knowing full well that I don't have the budget for the exotic components that he is using. He has the resources to do it, but he apparently won't.
fdegrove said
Hi,
Does a polyproplyne cap measure the same as a ptfe cap?
It doesn't.
Does a carbon film resistor measure the same as a (bulkfoil?) Vishay metalfilm?
It doesn't.
Would I hear the difference between the two in a blind test?
Quite likely.
A simple test: build yourself two amps, one using same brand carbon films, the other Vishays and listen.
If your system has high enough resolution and the amps as well chances are you'll hear the difference.
If I perceive/hear those differences and at least a few hundred other people do as well, chances are there is a difference.
If we can't measure that in our usual ways then we're quite likely not using the proper tools.
[/QUOTE][/COLOR]
If there's an audible difference it will be a measureable difference.
It's odd that tweaks seem to always be positive in their effect.
Hi,
Does a polyproplyne cap measure the same as a ptfe cap?
It doesn't.
Does a carbon film resistor measure the same as a (bulkfoil?) Vishay metalfilm?
It doesn't.
Would I hear the difference between the two in a blind test?
Quite likely.
A simple test: build yourself two amps, one using same brand carbon films, the other Vishays and listen.
If your system has high enough resolution and the amps as well chances are you'll hear the difference.
If I perceive/hear those differences and at least a few hundred other people do as well, chances are there is a difference.
If we can't measure that in our usual ways then we're quite likely not using the proper tools.
[/QUOTE][/COLOR]
If there's an audible difference it will be a measureable difference.
It's odd that tweaks seem to always be positive in their effect.
Hi,
How do you measure that?
Should is the operative word one would think....
However, there are many different types of filmcaps using different types of film and winding methods resulting in not so subtle audible AND measurable differences.
For the record: there is no such thing as a carbon film cap and the Vishays we were refering to are resistors, not caps.
Depends on what you measure I suppose.
C value is easy enough though.
That's the idea, yes...The rest of the stuff we try in our spare time is discarded as "not such a bright idea".
Blue on blue, however is a really nice touch...
Cheers,😉
How do you measure that?
Should is the operative word one would think....
However, there are many different types of filmcaps using different types of film and winding methods resulting in not so subtle audible AND measurable differences.
For the record: there is no such thing as a carbon film cap and the Vishays we were refering to are resistors, not caps.
Depends on what you measure I suppose.
C value is easy enough though.
That's the idea, yes...The rest of the stuff we try in our spare time is discarded as "not such a bright idea".
Blue on blue, however is a really nice touch...
Cheers,😉
Funny...this was just posted over at the AA.
"You are correct, there are good and bad engineers. However I do not think there are many great engineers working on mass-market or even higher end audio. Several years ago while working as a physician I had the opportunity to talk with many engineers. I was just getting into tube audio DIY at the time and had noticed that different kinds and brands of resistors sounded different. I'm an amateur pianist and have fairly good set of ears and this phenomenon aroused my curiosity. I asked engineer after engineer why different resistors might sound different in a circuit and they all looked at me blankly and said "they don't". Well it was obvious to me that they did so I kept on asking until I found in engineer who said "oh, you know why that is....." and proceeded to give me a phenomenally clear and concise lecture regarding the fact that no resistor is a perfect resistor and that they all also have inductance and capacitance and how this would affect the sound. After the lesson I looked at him and asked him why the other engineers had said there was no difference in sound from resistor to resistor. He looked at me and said dismissively "contract engineers". This particular gentleman was an engineer at the forefront of his particular technology and had his own company which was quite well known. The problem is that engineers like this are few and far between and even fewer of these have been interested in audio. Personally I wish more of them were involved as some of the mysteries might actually be better understood. In the meantime I trust my ears.
"
The original post.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/tubediy/messages/61664.html
"You are correct, there are good and bad engineers. However I do not think there are many great engineers working on mass-market or even higher end audio. Several years ago while working as a physician I had the opportunity to talk with many engineers. I was just getting into tube audio DIY at the time and had noticed that different kinds and brands of resistors sounded different. I'm an amateur pianist and have fairly good set of ears and this phenomenon aroused my curiosity. I asked engineer after engineer why different resistors might sound different in a circuit and they all looked at me blankly and said "they don't". Well it was obvious to me that they did so I kept on asking until I found in engineer who said "oh, you know why that is....." and proceeded to give me a phenomenally clear and concise lecture regarding the fact that no resistor is a perfect resistor and that they all also have inductance and capacitance and how this would affect the sound. After the lesson I looked at him and asked him why the other engineers had said there was no difference in sound from resistor to resistor. He looked at me and said dismissively "contract engineers". This particular gentleman was an engineer at the forefront of his particular technology and had his own company which was quite well known. The problem is that engineers like this are few and far between and even fewer of these have been interested in audio. Personally I wish more of them were involved as some of the mysteries might actually be better understood. In the meantime I trust my ears.
"
The original post.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/tubediy/messages/61664.html
Some of you are catching on. ;-) Really! For example, I don't know WHY pointed feet should sound better than rubber feet, but many of us find it to be true. Also, many of us find that we often 'agree' on the sound quality of a certain component, even if we have never met each other.
For the record, I have thousands of mil spec components that sound LOUSY, in audio products. Want to buy some? I can give you a good deal! This is your chance to prove me wrong. ;-)
For the record, I have thousands of mil spec components that sound LOUSY, in audio products. Want to buy some? I can give you a good deal! This is your chance to prove me wrong. ;-)
Bas, I don't know how to prove this to you, BUT I have hundreds, if not thousands, of resistors that are mil spec, beautiful, and with gold plated leads. Many have a clear 'glass' case so that you can even see the resistance element. I made a preamp with these resistors about 25 years ago. It was a disappointment. Later, I made similar preamps with 10 cent, 1% Resista metal film resistors, and the results were spectacular! I won several awards. Want to buy some of my gold plated mil spec resistors? I will sell them cheap!
Hi,
Sure..
I can probably also tell you why they sound lousy if I can get my hands on them.
It's only where milspec requirements AND audio requirements coincide and are applied to the manufacture of that component that you have a good chance for it to sound fine IMHO.
While I wouldn't say they invariably sound better under any audio gear, one could say that more often than not this pointy critters make for a better sound than just ordinary rubber feet.
There are so many tricks for isolating equipment that defy logic but there's often a good explanation for it.
Thanks for the quote, Bas. That sums it up quite nicely.
Cheers,😉
Sure..
I can probably also tell you why they sound lousy if I can get my hands on them.
It's only where milspec requirements AND audio requirements coincide and are applied to the manufacture of that component that you have a good chance for it to sound fine IMHO.
While I wouldn't say they invariably sound better under any audio gear, one could say that more often than not this pointy critters make for a better sound than just ordinary rubber feet.
There are so many tricks for isolating equipment that defy logic but there's often a good explanation for it.
Thanks for the quote, Bas. That sums it up quite nicely.
Cheers,😉
Peter Daniel said:
Several years ago in Italy was sold some wine "corrected" with methylic alcohol (IIRC) to enance taste.
The fact was eventually caught by our FDA (Food and Drug Admin) as methylic alcohol is dangerous for human health and the news went on the newspapers.
An old man who has being drinking that wine for years was suggested by his daughter not to continue to drink that wine.
He refused and continued to drink the wine telling that the wine tasted good.
Eventually the old man got blind.
Are we shure that listening to sound "corrected" with spikes, cry'ed cables and snake oil doesn't make us mind blind?
Isn't better to have our wine/sound tested by our FDA/SDA (Sound and Drug Admin)?
diy_audio_fo said:
I wonder if that man got blind if his daughter didn't suggest he shouldn't continue drinking that wine?
geewhizbang said:
Hey, if you think it's so kewl but you can't afford it, drop me a line and I'll send you some of those goodies for testing. But no more excuses.
Bas, I don't know how to prove this to you, BUT I have hundreds, if not thousands, of resistors that are mil spec, beautiful, and with gold plated leads. Many have a clear 'glass' case so that you can even see the resistance element. I made a preamp with these resistors about 25 years ago. It was a disappointment. Later, I made similar preamps with 10 cent, 1% Resista metal film resistors, and the results were spectacular! I won several awards. Want to buy some of my gold plated mil spec resistors? I will sell them cheap!
Hi,
Methyl alcohol will get anyone blind in the long run.
I agree that you should have a solid, well known, reference for comparison's sake if you want absolute neutrality from your system.
Other than that, audio is and always will be a "subjective" experience.
Cheers,😉
Methyl alcohol will get anyone blind in the long run.
I agree that you should have a solid, well known, reference for comparison's sake if you want absolute neutrality from your system.
Other than that, audio is and always will be a "subjective" experience.
Cheers,😉
john curl said:
M2A2 General Dynamics is the best of the world and is certainly mil spec but will never win at Indianapolis
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