In a manner yes, in technical world 20 years old of tests do not count much for me.
So what is your problem?
Hi Anatech,
Again sincerely and with all due respect,
I and others don't find the quoted claim to be supported by today's SOA 1-bit dac blind testing results. Maybe your work was from 20 years ago, and madis64 wouldn't believe you either?
With that I will stop here on the jitter subject (which is topically related to observed capacitor effects as a part this thread). Happy for you to have the last word.
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Clearly, but you don't seem to approach this constructively, say by collecting new data, and thus providing any justification for what is otherwise a random opinion/theory plucked out of the air.
If allowed I may answer to the threads title.
When I was in my late 20's and early 30's with some friends we build all kinds of amps. At that time we all had perfect hearing. The input/ DC blocking capacitor was quite a theme at that time. We agreed on one amp version and did all kinds of tests. We had already learned quite a few things. With audio testing, a quick change of the DUT's is important, if you need 30 seconds to change wires, subtile differences are already gone from your memory.
We all agreed the cheap electrolytics sounded inacceptable. To cut it short, in the end we decided that a 100V Wima MKS was the most convincing capacitor. Something like a base line we all could agree on. Some exotic parts sounded just as good, maybe a little different, but some motor capacitor, half the size of the audio PCB looked a little odd.
So if you are undecided, get a real WIMA MKS and you will be in the upper region of "capacitor sound" for sure. They may not be the best, but sure reach near 99%.
Just an anecdote: Because the high end manufacturer BURMESTER used this type in his products, in the beginning we all were biased against the WIMA caps. Almost all audio manufacturers with cult status used something else, more exotic and unaviable for input and coupling caps, so we thought they must know better. In the end we had to agree to Mr. Burmester.
Today there are even some very good sounding electrolytics I must admitt, but because of their limited live time, I still don't like to use them. In fact most problems of older amps and speakers are caused by them ageing.
When I was in my late 20's and early 30's with some friends we build all kinds of amps. At that time we all had perfect hearing. The input/ DC blocking capacitor was quite a theme at that time. We agreed on one amp version and did all kinds of tests. We had already learned quite a few things. With audio testing, a quick change of the DUT's is important, if you need 30 seconds to change wires, subtile differences are already gone from your memory.
We all agreed the cheap electrolytics sounded inacceptable. To cut it short, in the end we decided that a 100V Wima MKS was the most convincing capacitor. Something like a base line we all could agree on. Some exotic parts sounded just as good, maybe a little different, but some motor capacitor, half the size of the audio PCB looked a little odd.
So if you are undecided, get a real WIMA MKS and you will be in the upper region of "capacitor sound" for sure. They may not be the best, but sure reach near 99%.
Just an anecdote: Because the high end manufacturer BURMESTER used this type in his products, in the beginning we all were biased against the WIMA caps. Almost all audio manufacturers with cult status used something else, more exotic and unaviable for input and coupling caps, so we thought they must know better. In the end we had to agree to Mr. Burmester.
Today there are even some very good sounding electrolytics I must admitt, but because of their limited live time, I still don't like to use them. In fact most problems of older amps and speakers are caused by them ageing.
Exactly but you and I are not in the selected group of audio über-elitists and we don’t know and will not know better. Darwin proven right again. We are the untouchables no we are the outcasts of audio. Filling material. Plebs not worthy of materials better than polyester in our inferior noise skirts ridden SMSL DACs. Panem et circensis.
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Well, I still currently do this work. I still use the 5372A and my findings are about the same.
I do agree that today our measuring ability has greatly improved. This means we can find reasons. It isn't about proving anything, it's about being able to see and follow the evidence.
As for jitter, some is embedded in the source material. You can't escape that and this alone can muddy the waters. Maybe at some point you'd like to figure out what the minimum timing difference is that can be heard - in a repeatable way that others can reproduce. There was some information I read on that a long while ago. There is where your answer is.
The problem with using humans is that they are extremely susceptible to what they've read in the past or what is being discussed. In a group, no one wants to be seen as not as able to tell differences, so you'll get people saying they hear things (and they may believe it) that they didn't. Typically one person at least has to be the golden eared leader. The findings have very real doubt under these circumstances.
I do agree that today our measuring ability has greatly improved. This means we can find reasons. It isn't about proving anything, it's about being able to see and follow the evidence.
As for jitter, some is embedded in the source material. You can't escape that and this alone can muddy the waters. Maybe at some point you'd like to figure out what the minimum timing difference is that can be heard - in a repeatable way that others can reproduce. There was some information I read on that a long while ago. There is where your answer is.
The problem with using humans is that they are extremely susceptible to what they've read in the past or what is being discussed. In a group, no one wants to be seen as not as able to tell differences, so you'll get people saying they hear things (and they may believe it) that they didn't. Typically one person at least has to be the golden eared leader. The findings have very real doubt under these circumstances.
These days I'd suggest Wima MKP4 which work very well for me: metallised polypropylene film, epoxy-potted in a rigid case, compact format up to 10uF in the low-voltage ratings suited to coupling caps. My go-to.
Wima meanwhile understands how to do audio talk:
https://www.wima.de/wp-content/uploads/media/WIMA-Audio.pdf
A 10 uF 63/100V MKP4 is about 22.5 mm larger pitched than a 5 mm pitched MKS2 10 uF 50V. If one has the space of course choose theoretically very best/largest/closest to ideal if the budget allows. In todays electronics space is often limited. Retrofitting film for electrolytics is very often 5 mm pitched. Also when RF is around that better larger cap may not be a better performer.
BTW it pays off to use the outer foil side to lowest potential. This is the side with the stripe usually.
https://www.wima.de/wp-content/uploads/media/WIMA-Audio.pdf
A 10 uF 63/100V MKP4 is about 22.5 mm larger pitched than a 5 mm pitched MKS2 10 uF 50V. If one has the space of course choose theoretically very best/largest/closest to ideal if the budget allows. In todays electronics space is often limited. Retrofitting film for electrolytics is very often 5 mm pitched. Also when RF is around that better larger cap may not be a better performer.
BTW it pays off to use the outer foil side to lowest potential. This is the side with the stripe usually.
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As I said, Bateman updated his results 9 years ago, There is no review later than that by Bateman because he shuffled off this mortal coil coincident with the publication date.
Have you read that, or Bateman's original articles?
Anyway, if you are so moved, you step up to the plate and update Bateman's measurements. I for one would be very interested in your comprehensive, up to date measurements of currently available capacitors.
It is informative. You will never use axial film caps again 🙂
Please note that Wima and other German industrial part producers are quite conservative regarding audio and the usual exaggerated taken-out-of-context nonsense as these are German and don't sell nonsense. One day when economics are thinner they realize that they miss revenue because of that. Recently I was in contact with a German manufacturer of passive stuff that is being liked and used by audiophiles but pretty much out of reach as it is registered & traceable medical stuff. The manager said that it was not in their interest to serve other markets....
Please note that Wima and other German industrial part producers are quite conservative regarding audio and the usual exaggerated taken-out-of-context nonsense as these are German and don't sell nonsense. One day when economics are thinner they realize that they miss revenue because of that. Recently I was in contact with a German manufacturer of passive stuff that is being liked and used by audiophiles but pretty much out of reach as it is registered & traceable medical stuff. The manager said that it was not in their interest to serve other markets....
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Ha!
I knew that Mundorf, the old spool twiddler, could not be a German, judged by all the nonsense he has been letting off during countless years.
I knew that Mundorf, the old spool twiddler, could not be a German, judged by all the nonsense he has been letting off during countless years.
Exceptions confirm the rule they say. Also stuff for consumers is eh... produced and marketed for consumers. Consumers don't want truth, they want a feeling. Now audio consumers... those want a fairy tale. In black with gold lettering of course.
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I have read the original articles, not the 2015 ones.
I do not need to do all things in the world just because I do not take the previous versions for granted. Repeating Bateman's measurements would mean investing quite some time into the test equipment (and learning curve) and this is not on my agenda.
The only thing that is really of practical interest for me is how today's bypolar lytic measures against a Wima film capacitor and if there is any measureable difference between a Muse and "regular" bipolar.
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Once more, to be clear, I have no doubts about Bateman's measuring process or the results that he achieved. The only thing is that today's capacitors are already by dimensions substantially smaller which means their internal dimensions of foils, platings etc and chemical composition of electrolyte are different. I.e. historical results are most probably not applicable to them.
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Internal connection methods are surely different and foils have become thinner to be able to miniaturize stuff even more. Wima is the one leading with "largest value in smallest size" and this has resulted in a few products that clearly had technical deficiencies because of that but were record holders/proof-of-skill (and eventually abandoned). These would definitely have been picked out by Bateman.
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Okay madis64, then measure them. Easy peasy.
Given you are the one disputing things, I would think you have an immediate interest in finding out what the truth is.
Given you are the one disputing things, I would think you have an immediate interest in finding out what the truth is.
Sorry, no bite. I do have interest but that is nothing "immediate" but rather academical.
And you are correct - if the DUT has substantially changed then any existing test results (on old DUT) has to be disputed.
Okay. If you have an academic interest, cool. But don't debate anything unless you know different. Don't poke at things just because you can, it isn't helpful.
It's quite okay to ask a question. But never in opposition without some knowledge and good reason.
It's quite okay to ask a question. But never in opposition without some knowledge and good reason.