Hi,
Mounting capacitors on the PCB with silicone adhesive really helps with the vibration pick up. You can always coat the part also and the silicone helps to absorb vibration. I am in the habit of using silicone on large capacitors anyway.
Capacitor testing is of much higher value when they include measured dissipation values. If the testers used a standardized capacitor value and "rubber knocker" to excite the part with the same energy every time, they could report meaningful data on microphonics. The subjective reporting is suspect to me. Gimme hard data and I'll consider the subjective reports as long as they refrain from miles of flowery prose. Music can only wear so many veils!
-Chris
Mounting capacitors on the PCB with silicone adhesive really helps with the vibration pick up. You can always coat the part also and the silicone helps to absorb vibration. I am in the habit of using silicone on large capacitors anyway.
Capacitor testing is of much higher value when they include measured dissipation values. If the testers used a standardized capacitor value and "rubber knocker" to excite the part with the same energy every time, they could report meaningful data on microphonics. The subjective reporting is suspect to me. Gimme hard data and I'll consider the subjective reports as long as they refrain from miles of flowery prose. Music can only wear so many veils!
-Chris
I haven't had any microphony problems with V-Caps or Sonicap Platinums. I haven't tried any other Teflon caps.
With regard to the skeptical comments about sonic differences between caps being in one's imagination and so forth, all I can say is: To each his own, Live and let live. If you try different caps (or resistors or wire or what have you) and you don't hear any difference, that's fine, just enjoy what you have. I'm not going to try to change your mind or write internet posts calling you crazy. On the other hand, I know what I hear, and my reactions are consistent, so don't call me crazy either.
There is just no point to arguing about the sound of capacitors. No one is going to change someone else's opinion with words. You have to try things for yourself.
On the question of value, that too is up to each individual. My only point there is that price doesn't correlate with sound quality. I have tried a number of expensive capacitors and disliked them. A lot. I also have some cheap caps that sound pretty decent. For example, Xicon PPN caps are OK as couplers, so are the small ASC film caps. They wouldn't be my choice but then they are a tiny fraction of the cost of a V-Cap.
Dave
With regard to the skeptical comments about sonic differences between caps being in one's imagination and so forth, all I can say is: To each his own, Live and let live. If you try different caps (or resistors or wire or what have you) and you don't hear any difference, that's fine, just enjoy what you have. I'm not going to try to change your mind or write internet posts calling you crazy. On the other hand, I know what I hear, and my reactions are consistent, so don't call me crazy either.
There is just no point to arguing about the sound of capacitors. No one is going to change someone else's opinion with words. You have to try things for yourself.
On the question of value, that too is up to each individual. My only point there is that price doesn't correlate with sound quality. I have tried a number of expensive capacitors and disliked them. A lot. I also have some cheap caps that sound pretty decent. For example, Xicon PPN caps are OK as couplers, so are the small ASC film caps. They wouldn't be my choice but then they are a tiny fraction of the cost of a V-Cap.
Dave
Microphonic problems mean non-linearity. No gluing to PCB/chassis/whatever can make the cap more linear if the capacitance change with the signal. Hermetically sealed stiff micas in wax are superb in this regard. Teflon flows, but Teflon capacitors has no resonant frequency in audio band.
It's probably to late to arrange for this year. But, perhaps at the next burning amp we need to arrange for a cap-off.
There are 2 problems with existing cap comparisons out there.
1. It's usually only 1 or 2 dudes doing the listening.
2. They know what capacitor is being used.
There are 2 problems with existing cap comparisons out there.
1. It's usually only 1 or 2 dudes doing the listening.
2. They know what capacitor is being used.
Hi Anatoliy,
What it means is that the layers are not wound tightly. Same principle as a capacitive transducer. You change the distance between conductive layers (plates) and any charge stored will be used to create a signal. I imagine manufacturers do not wind oil filled types that tightly. In that case, it would be the nature of the beast.
Ceramic caps suffer from the problem you are mentioning. Energy is stored in the dielectric. This happens much less in the Teflon and other plastic film types we are talking about.
-Chris
No.
What it means is that the layers are not wound tightly. Same principle as a capacitive transducer. You change the distance between conductive layers (plates) and any charge stored will be used to create a signal. I imagine manufacturers do not wind oil filled types that tightly. In that case, it would be the nature of the beast.
Ceramic caps suffer from the problem you are mentioning. Energy is stored in the dielectric. This happens much less in the Teflon and other plastic film types we are talking about.
I mentioned that the purpose was to absorb and damp the mechanical energy out. I used different words this time to better convey my meaning. The underlying cause here is that you change the capacitance by distorting the plate structure, changing the distance between those plates. If you recall, there is a formula that defines how much capacitance you will have given the dimensions of the plates, dielectric and the distance between the plates. There is no true non-linearity at work. I imagine a case can be made for the distance between the plates changing as the voltage across them changes. It would have to be a large voltage, whereas a small plate displacement creates a signal. I guess you could make those caps sing when mounted across an output transformer on the plate side.
-Chris
Chris;
microphonic problems in capacitors cause non-linearity because if a signal change distances between plates it changes the capacitance. Another problem is dependence of the dielectric constant on a field strength that also causes non-linearity. Segneto-ceramics change the dielectric constant with temperature, so currents that flow cause capacitance variations, in addition to it's piezoelectric effect that also cause frequency dependent distortions.
No snake oil, just a plain physics from a schoolbook.
microphonic problems in capacitors cause non-linearity because if a signal change distances between plates it changes the capacitance. Another problem is dependence of the dielectric constant on a field strength that also causes non-linearity. Segneto-ceramics change the dielectric constant with temperature, so currents that flow cause capacitance variations, in addition to it's piezoelectric effect that also cause frequency dependent distortions.
No snake oil, just a plain physics from a schoolbook.
Hi Anatoliy,
You have to read past the "No." part. There is actual value in the rest of the post.
I said "No." because you said that ....
You have to read past the "No." part. There is actual value in the rest of the post.
I said "No." because you said that ....
Which is only partly true, and not the prime mechanism in this case. I covered this too in my post.
An easy way to prove a point is to show measurement. If one capacitor sounds different from the other, the difference would be presentable in graphic form.Salectric said:
Hi Evenharmonics,
Humans are great at picking out minuscule differences. We just are not that repeatable, nor can we quantify what we hear.
When you measure, the anomaly may easily be buried beyond our ability to measure, or our understanding of what to measure. I have seen cases where there was a large measurable difference, but no one complained or mentioned the problem. Fixing the problem normally brought the question "What did you do, it sounds a lot better now!".
-Chris
Humans are great at picking out minuscule differences. We just are not that repeatable, nor can we quantify what we hear.
When you measure, the anomaly may easily be buried beyond our ability to measure, or our understanding of what to measure. I have seen cases where there was a large measurable difference, but no one complained or mentioned the problem. Fixing the problem normally brought the question "What did you do, it sounds a lot better now!".
-Chris
kevinkr said:
Agreed, though my post was focused on the nature of perception. A common argument is it's driven entirely by peer pressure, cost, positive reports, social status, etc. yet I'm often surprised how little correlation there is between those factors and the components I like. Real or imaginary, it's more complex than simple positive enforcement.
Hello,
what can I say. My experience, is that a capacitor does not sound. But it does. And after all it does not. 😱
I think this is the hype of this debate.
Let's try to understand. A capacitor is physically a component, which stores electrical charge. There’s no difference from a capacitor o 1uF to another of 1uF. Theoretically a capacitor capable of holding a charge of a 1 coulomb while showing a 1 volt at it ends it shows a 1 farad capacitance. And there isn’t any difference from a capacitor of same capacitance, at DC neither at AC at any frequency.
But, there is a real difference of behaviour from different technology caps. So, where stands that difference? It’s easily arguable; that the difference resides only in the tech is used to make it. The real capacitor can be reassembled in a math model composed by a theoretical capacitor fit with some resistors and inductors. This is the capacitor you are talking about, when you say you “snoop” the sound of it. In fact, you are not talking of the capacitance of that capacitor, but you snoop the sound of the tech it is made off, indeed.
Another point to take in to account off is which circuit host the coursed capacitor and where in that circuit, the cursed cap is placed.
And strangely, a cap could sound better o worse not depending on how much you paid for it rather where it is used for and where you placed it in the circuit; even if the rule is that a better component always costs more.
Cheers.
Larry.
what can I say. My experience, is that a capacitor does not sound. But it does. And after all it does not. 😱
I think this is the hype of this debate.
Let's try to understand. A capacitor is physically a component, which stores electrical charge. There’s no difference from a capacitor o 1uF to another of 1uF. Theoretically a capacitor capable of holding a charge of a 1 coulomb while showing a 1 volt at it ends it shows a 1 farad capacitance. And there isn’t any difference from a capacitor of same capacitance, at DC neither at AC at any frequency.
But, there is a real difference of behaviour from different technology caps. So, where stands that difference? It’s easily arguable; that the difference resides only in the tech is used to make it. The real capacitor can be reassembled in a math model composed by a theoretical capacitor fit with some resistors and inductors. This is the capacitor you are talking about, when you say you “snoop” the sound of it. In fact, you are not talking of the capacitance of that capacitor, but you snoop the sound of the tech it is made off, indeed.
Another point to take in to account off is which circuit host the coursed capacitor and where in that circuit, the cursed cap is placed.
And strangely, a cap could sound better o worse not depending on how much you paid for it rather where it is used for and where you placed it in the circuit; even if the rule is that a better component always costs more.
Cheers.
Larry.
A bit of topic maybe, but I came across this earlier. Who can guess which famous capacitor this patent is about?
http://www.google.com/patents?id=7-MnAAAAEBAJ
http://www.google.com/patents?id=7-MnAAAAEBAJ
anatech said:
Often I see the term perceivable and audible getting mixed up on the forums. For the clarity sake and to avoid a drawn out arguments, they should be distinguished.
As for the measurements, I’m talking about presenting the difference in sound, not preference.
I don't think human hearing is all that good compared to other species with eardrums. But we may be better at imagining things though. 😉
- Status
- Not open for further replies.