Capacitors and hype!

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#23
SY said:
The neglected factor is microphony. This is especially an issue with expensive, "hand-made" caps. I'll take something mass produced by machine, thank you.

I wonder if the "improvement" from removing the cans around the Teflon caps is because of making the cap more microphonic?
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I read somewhere of a listening test in which caps were driven hard with a high current source and effectively 'used as speakers'. One of the few caps which emitted no sound were SSG silver micas. Many boutique caps sang merrily. Re: the can removal, my test sample K72P-6 Teflons unquestionably became less microphonic, no doubt because the de-nuded caps were friction fit into a PVC pipe coupler.
 
#24
boiss said:
A capacitor has capacitance!
A capacitor has some Inductance due to it's construction but this is generally negligible?
A capacitor has resistance minimal but it's there!
A capacitor has Carisma?

Mike
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I know that you don't want to use ceramic caps in audio, they have a slight piezoelectric effect that will cause the capacitance to vary, and it varies with a hysteresis delay as well. . Which cannot be good with an audio signal.

Tantalum caps are not so great for audio work either, use aluminum electrolytic caps instead (mainly an issue in SS amps, though). Not sure what the issue is with tantalum though.

I'm not sure my ears can pick up the subtleties between the various kinds of film caps and other quality caps people mention in these forums...
 
#26
I have tried lots of coupling caps and bypass caps over the years and I was never happy with any of them, until I tried Teflon V-Caps and Sonicap Platinums. Both of these caps are very good sonically even though they sound different from each other. What I have done is try one of each at critical places and selected whichever one I liked best. Unfortunately, they need a long time to break in, so it helps to have a pair of each already broken in that can be subbed in for comparison purposes.

I know these Teflon caps are expensive but they're worth it in my opinion.

Dave
 
#29
Psychoacoustics. A long, slippery slope to bankruptcy.

If you listen too hard, you may hear just about anything. I'm not saying there may be no differences. What I am saying is that human hearing is not accurate enough. Not in my view anyway. About all I can do is tell if I like something, or not. This doesn't take that long, certainly not days or weeks.

I have a very strong suspicion that the "break in" period is more the listener getting accustomed to the sound.

-Chris
 
#31
Explain then why my preference is for a cheap cap I've 'known' since the original Jung/Walsh article a quarter century ago is a 'bad cap'? Disclaimer: arguing I like its colourations requires as a prerequisite it has them. 😉
 
#32
rdf said:
Explain then why my preference is for a cheap cap I've 'known' since the original Jung/Walsh article a quarter century ago is a 'bad cap'? Disclaimer: arguing I like its colourations requires as a prerequisite it has them. 😉
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Stubborn people sometimes are very immune against hypnotic suggestions. You have no chance to experience nirvana of real break-in!


😀
 
#33
Hi rdf,
Was it suggested that it was a bad choice? Picking caps is much like your choice in, say a hamburger. What toppings do you want with that?

Don't forget too that anything that is better than "our" reference will be the better - whatever. The problem starts with the fads and the mindless application of the "best" part. A specific application, or position in a circuit, will suggest a range of suitable parts. Ceramics (not only C0G / NP0) are fine for supply filtering.

-Chris
 
#34
Wavebourn said:

Stubborn people....
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Sir, you know me!


anatech said:
Hi rdf,
Was it suggested that it was a bad choice?
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Hi Chris. Yep, micas didn't fair well. Better than electrolytics and tants but well behind easily available and cheap alternates like polyprop/foil. Silver micas got me rethinking the whole 'what makes a good cap' question from square one again. Or it could be all sonic woo-woo. 😉
Regardless, here's a relatively cheap (I bought them for $2/pop) and poorly regarded cap I preferred to zoot-tech Teflon. It's difficult to see how suggestion played a major role unless I'm the ultimate contrarian. But then I'ld like electrolytics too, and I don't. So confusing....
 
#35
Here is a really good cheap test. Get one of the toshiba DVD players that everyone was modding up. Like the 3950 or whatever. Bypass the output stage, slap some electrolytics on the new output stage, now switch them with some orange drops or wimas or anything else you want. Hear the difference? Of course you do, everyone does, even people who have only listened to shitty MP3s on their iPods.
 
#37
OK, I have read all that was written so far in this thread and I have few more questions;-
1, Having read the blurb on a US maker of teflon caps site which can cost over $600 each, I see that there is no info published regarding things like inductance and resonant frequency. No mention of resistance, either internal or in connecting leads. No mention of anything at all technical except the Vmax and size. There is no mention of ageing effects.
2, what are the ageing effects, What are they due to and how can they be countered.
3, How can you be sure that a cap has been "aged correctly"
4, how can you keep it like that or do you throw it away as it ages more, buy another and go through the process again.
Mike
 
#38
boiss said:
OK, I have read all that was written so far in this thread and I have few more questions;-
1, Having read the blurb on a US maker of teflon caps site which can cost over $600 each, I see that there is no info published regarding things like inductance and resonant frequency. No mention of resistance, either internal or in connecting leads. No mention of anything at all technical except the Vmax and size. There is no mention of ageing effects.
2, what are the ageing effects, What are they due to and how can they be countered.
3, How can you be sure that a cap has been "aged correctly"
4, how can you keep it like that or do you throw it away as it ages more, buy another and go through the process again.
Mike
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I wouldn't spend that sort of money on any cap or component other than perhaps an exotic output transformer.. 😀

Caps aren't wine and don't need to be aged prior to use, break in phenomena is something else and subject to much debate.

Film caps do not normally wear out in use unless run in very high current/pulse applications where the electrostatic stresses inside the capacitor may cause it to fail. Again the manufacturer should be able to answer this question.

Run them conservatively (usually the case in audio applications except for X-O applications and keep them cool. Choose dielectrics known to be stable long term.

If the manufacturer can't provide the technical information you request you probably should spend your money elsewhere.
 
#39
Kevin, I've found quite a few foil caps that appear to be non-microphonic. My favorites are the Wima FKP. I've pretty much given up on Teflon- it's a lovely material for timing circuits and integrators, but the softness of the material makes tight construction difficult- they tend to be excellent transducers.
 
#40
SY said:
Kevin, I've found quite a few foil caps that appear to be non-microphonic. My favorites are the Wima FKP. I've pretty much given up on Teflon- it's a lovely material for timing circuits and integrators, but the softness of the material makes tight construction difficult- they tend to be excellent transducers.
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Hi Sy,
That comment on "transducers" unfortunately in my experience is quite true.. 😀 I tend to build things solid and heavy, and the power transformers are almost always located on another chassis. I remember when I first discovered this rather disconcerting aspect to teflon cap performance.. :devilr: 😕 I have since learned to live with it, and given the way I build things it has not proved to be much of a problem.

I tend to stick to values of 0.22uF or less with all teflon caps because of the expense.. Larger values I tend to favor Dynamicaps or similar..


Explain then why my preference is for a cheap cap I've 'known' since the original Jung/Walsh article a quarter century ago is a 'bad cap'? Disclaimer: arguing I like its colourations requires as a prerequisite it has them.
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It could well be that this is a good capacitor both sonically and electrically, great sonics are not just the province of exotically branded audiophile friendly capacitors. Most of these boutique brands are made by legitimate commercial capacitor manufacturers. There's a company in Connecticut "Westco" which makes some very good sounding film caps and also makes custom caps for boutique vendors here: http://www.filmcapacitors.com/ and another in upstate NY STK at http://www.stkelectronics.com/ - both these and many others make audio friendly film caps at reasonable prices. Both of these companies do a lot of custom work and will make caps to order if quantity is sufficient..

Here is an interesting site about listening tests performed on a variety of boutique and commodity brand film capacitors used in X-O applications:http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html Note that the comments are subjective in nature and do not include technical measurement data of the capacitors themselves although values and tolerances are apparently measured and cited in some cases. (Manufacturer's data is provided where available.) Just an interesting footnote to the discussion here, and as always YMMV..
 
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