A capacitor has capacitance!
A capacitor has some Inductance due to it's construction but this is generally negligible?
A capacitor has resistance minimal but it's there!
A capacitor has Carisma?
A capacitor can be full of ******** and cost more than an O/P transformer?
Any thoughts and proof!!!
Mike
A capacitor has some Inductance due to it's construction but this is generally negligible?
A capacitor has resistance minimal but it's there!
A capacitor has Carisma?
A capacitor can be full of ******** and cost more than an O/P transformer?
Any thoughts and proof!!!
Mike
Hi Mike,
I think you need to focus your question some more. The response from Colt45 points out the underlying issue, although I'd call those people more "misdirected" than stupid.
Is your problem with the advertising of the product, or the reviewer drivel? Something else?
-Chris
I think you need to focus your question some more. The response from Colt45 points out the underlying issue, although I'd call those people more "misdirected" than stupid.
Is your problem with the advertising of the product, or the reviewer drivel? Something else?
-Chris
Call me stupid... I dare ya!😀
All capacitors have inductance, depending on construction it can be very significant..
All capacitors have non-linear dielectrics without exception. DF and DA are the two major measures of such effects.
Did you know the nature of the termination at the end of the foil or metalization in a film cap can have an effect on linearity as well? (Think of as many as three different metals, and not perfectly hermetic seals.)
Finally having spent many years with cheap capacitors I came to realize that certain types of "improved" and expensive capacitor seemed to sound better, I'm referring primarily to teflon dielectric types - they're never cheap but milspec surplus seem to work about as well as the exotic brands. (Russian made surplus teflons offer a lot of bang for not so many bucks.)
In many cases these were gifted to me for various reasons - so there was no economic incentive for me to hear an improvement, and in the face of a fairly strong desire not to spend more on this already expensive hobby.
Electrolytics are even more complex to discuss as although there are lots of well understood performance downfalls - why is it that no one explains why some well respected brands of large value electrolytics generate huge amounts of distortion at very low signal voltages? (Low impedance cathode bypass for example)
My preference runs to:
Teflon/foil
polystyrene/foil
paper in oil/foil
polypropylene/foil (sometimes in oil, like tuna..
)
metalized polypropylene
Yes, the advertising copy associated with exotic capacitors is pure bunk, however most of these capacitors are made by well regarded capacitor manufacturers and actually represent nominally above average capacitor performance in DF/DA and other areas. It would be great to get good quality caps without paying for the name, but sometimes it is hard to know what you are getting, and for that reason I often fork over relatively big bucks. My fav over the last 4 yrs has been the teflon based Vcap which wins in my system for transparency over a lot of other equally expensive capacitors.
Make yourself a little test jig and actually listen to a bunch of capacitors, you may or may not find you hear any difference. Should you not hear any difference just use the cheapest thing you can get.
All capacitors have inductance, depending on construction it can be very significant..
All capacitors have non-linear dielectrics without exception. DF and DA are the two major measures of such effects.
Did you know the nature of the termination at the end of the foil or metalization in a film cap can have an effect on linearity as well? (Think of as many as three different metals, and not perfectly hermetic seals.)
Finally having spent many years with cheap capacitors I came to realize that certain types of "improved" and expensive capacitor seemed to sound better, I'm referring primarily to teflon dielectric types - they're never cheap but milspec surplus seem to work about as well as the exotic brands. (Russian made surplus teflons offer a lot of bang for not so many bucks.)
In many cases these were gifted to me for various reasons - so there was no economic incentive for me to hear an improvement, and in the face of a fairly strong desire not to spend more on this already expensive hobby.
Electrolytics are even more complex to discuss as although there are lots of well understood performance downfalls - why is it that no one explains why some well respected brands of large value electrolytics generate huge amounts of distortion at very low signal voltages? (Low impedance cathode bypass for example)
My preference runs to:
Teflon/foil
polystyrene/foil
paper in oil/foil
polypropylene/foil (sometimes in oil, like tuna..
)metalized polypropylene
Yes, the advertising copy associated with exotic capacitors is pure bunk, however most of these capacitors are made by well regarded capacitor manufacturers and actually represent nominally above average capacitor performance in DF/DA and other areas. It would be great to get good quality caps without paying for the name, but sometimes it is hard to know what you are getting, and for that reason I often fork over relatively big bucks. My fav over the last 4 yrs has been the teflon based Vcap which wins in my system for transparency over a lot of other equally expensive capacitors.
Make yourself a little test jig and actually listen to a bunch of capacitors, you may or may not find you hear any difference. Should you not hear any difference just use the cheapest thing you can get.
Mike, have you read Morgan Jones's Valve Amplifiers? He goes to some lengths to exlain this subject and it's worth reading.
Hi ray_moth,
I can't disagree. That book should be a must read for DIY people. It doesn't matter if you don't use valves, the ideas are presented clearly and the book is a very easy read.
Hi kevinkr,
I agree with what you are saying. Often times it's more the capacitor family that is important. Not the name on the outside. The bang for the dollar comes into play as well. $200 dollar caps are just plain silly, even if they may seem to sound better. Even $20 for a smaller cap is outside what I'll spend.
Paper in oil/foil caps. I don't trust them. Sorry.
Foil tends to handle higher currents well, so they are for power supplies or speaker crossovers mostly. Nothing wrong with film as long as it's thick enough and is not carrying higher currents. They may open if used in zobel networks or for supply bypassing.
One last point. Often, newer electrolytic caps may be better quality. I find that the larger case volume is a better cap for the same value. That is a generalization that may not always hold.
Are your findings similar Kevin?
-Chris
I can't disagree. That book should be a must read for DIY people. It doesn't matter if you don't use valves, the ideas are presented clearly and the book is a very easy read.
Hi kevinkr,
I agree with what you are saying. Often times it's more the capacitor family that is important. Not the name on the outside. The bang for the dollar comes into play as well. $200 dollar caps are just plain silly, even if they may seem to sound better. Even $20 for a smaller cap is outside what I'll spend.
Paper in oil/foil caps. I don't trust them. Sorry.
Foil tends to handle higher currents well, so they are for power supplies or speaker crossovers mostly. Nothing wrong with film as long as it's thick enough and is not carrying higher currents. They may open if used in zobel networks or for supply bypassing.
One last point. Often, newer electrolytic caps may be better quality. I find that the larger case volume is a better cap for the same value. That is a generalization that may not always hold.
Are your findings similar Kevin?
-Chris
I've just started using cheap Russian Teflons and honestly I prefer them over MIT RTX, Auricap, Wima, Wondercap, etc. Another inexpensive cap I prefer to use is the Obbligato stuff.
IMHO:
The brand name isn't important. What matters is the dielectric.
Poly F/F are a nice balance between cost/performance, although higher value/voltage units can be very large.
Metalized types tend to sound too bright, even after many hours of break-in.
For compensation networks, polystyrene is the best. Mica I avoid as well....they tend to sound harsh.
I my experience, oils seem to roll off the treble.
The brand name isn't important. What matters is the dielectric.
Poly F/F are a nice balance between cost/performance, although higher value/voltage units can be very large.
Metalized types tend to sound too bright, even after many hours of break-in.
For compensation networks, polystyrene is the best. Mica I avoid as well....they tend to sound harsh.
I my experience, oils seem to roll off the treble.
kstagger said:
Yeah, they are very good, and the price of admission is right. Removing the metal can around them reportedly is a revelation, but alas I am too cowardly to try it.. 😀
I find the RTX bright and harsh sounding, and I don't think it is just revealing the short comings in the amplifier circuitry it is connected to - I think it is adding something to the sound. I will say it was an absolutely huge improvement over the CDE WMF types I used previously.
I've heard good things about the Obbligato as well. For X-O I find the Clarity SA Cap to be hard to beat. It's sold by a lot of vendors, but I generally get mine from Madisound.
anatech said:
Re: The paper in oil, the only ones I have used in recent years have been Jensen brand or other brands oem'd by Jensen, and they have been very reliable in the 10 or so years I have used them. Frankly I have seen physically small mylars that had higher leakage current than these. So far no problems, but I much prefer the "sound" of teflon to these paper caps which sound a bit slow and euphonic to me..
My general experience matches yours very well in fact as do my opinions. Nothing to disagree with here.. 😀
Your comments on the electrolytics parallel my recent experience, and I tend to use the 63V rating in Nichicons almost exclusively now because they have a much lower loss tangent angle than a comparable lower voltage cap, and the larger physical case sizes in the higher voltage ratings are even better in most cases. I still prefer any BG in the audio path if I can get my hands on one, for supply use I generally stick to the Nichicon as mentioned...
kstagger said:
Teflon AKA Ftoroplast-4 in Russia is a good dielectric with low losses; also it has good acoustical properties... Guess why they are significant?
kevinkr said:
How do you remove the can? I tried hard to like the Ft-3 but after a week of suffering had to delegate them to guarding a dark cupboard. Completely unusable for me as they currently sound and probably lacking the patience to break them in for six months. Otoh, excellent experience with K40 Y9.
The neglected factor is microphony. This is especially an issue with expensive, "hand-made" caps. I'll take something mass produced by machine, thank you.
I wonder if the "improvement" from removing the cans around the Teflon caps is because of making the cap more microphonic?
I wonder if the "improvement" from removing the cans around the Teflon caps is because of making the cap more microphonic?
HYPE and the audio community
I'm 60 years old and have been an audiophile building my own equipment since I was about seven when my father bought me my first Knight Kit 10 watt amplifier that I put together under the watchful eye of my cousin who was a master solderer and technician for Western Electric and Bell Labs. But I must admit that the Audio field is chock full of HYPE no matter what you focus on. HYPE is used to sell. When it should be your ears that tell you whether or not something is worth the price. That Knight Kit I put together was full of cheap ceramic capacitors that if you measured probably had horrible DA and DF parameters. At the same time you get what you pay for. There are capacitors that are better made than some. Just like anything else in this world. It also had a 12ax7 phono preamp that the cathodes were grounded and the bias was grid leaked and boo-koo oodles of feedback. I've since graduated to many other projects since but I've learned that most of the consumer equipment is grossly under engineered as a cost pre-requisite to make profit. Few pieces have regulated power supplys or filter chokes or oil capacitors. My cousin would take me on tours of the long lines facility at AT&T. All the equipment was racked in 19 or 24 inch rack panels, 10 feet high and painted battle ship grey. Every chassis was at least .080 thick cadmium yellow plated steel. Most all circuits were hard wired point to point with some use of Y terminal posts and solid copper ground busses . Oil capacitors were used almost exclusively and every filter choke or transformer was potted in a painted grey can; exquisite. He would bring home several units that had been discarded made by Western Electric and I was able to see how they were assembled. I have seen few consumer grade or even pro pieces of audio equipment made to this level of sophistication or quality. It takes mental work and a little research to separate the HYPE from the SUBSTANCE. Ray Hughes
I'm 60 years old and have been an audiophile building my own equipment since I was about seven when my father bought me my first Knight Kit 10 watt amplifier that I put together under the watchful eye of my cousin who was a master solderer and technician for Western Electric and Bell Labs. But I must admit that the Audio field is chock full of HYPE no matter what you focus on. HYPE is used to sell. When it should be your ears that tell you whether or not something is worth the price. That Knight Kit I put together was full of cheap ceramic capacitors that if you measured probably had horrible DA and DF parameters. At the same time you get what you pay for. There are capacitors that are better made than some. Just like anything else in this world. It also had a 12ax7 phono preamp that the cathodes were grounded and the bias was grid leaked and boo-koo oodles of feedback. I've since graduated to many other projects since but I've learned that most of the consumer equipment is grossly under engineered as a cost pre-requisite to make profit. Few pieces have regulated power supplys or filter chokes or oil capacitors. My cousin would take me on tours of the long lines facility at AT&T. All the equipment was racked in 19 or 24 inch rack panels, 10 feet high and painted battle ship grey. Every chassis was at least .080 thick cadmium yellow plated steel. Most all circuits were hard wired point to point with some use of Y terminal posts and solid copper ground busses . Oil capacitors were used almost exclusively and every filter choke or transformer was potted in a painted grey can; exquisite. He would bring home several units that had been discarded made by Western Electric and I was able to see how they were assembled. I have seen few consumer grade or even pro pieces of audio equipment made to this level of sophistication or quality. It takes mental work and a little research to separate the HYPE from the SUBSTANCE. Ray Hughes
First of all I'm sure the "improvement" cannot be measured. So for some it will fall under "hype"
Secondly I suppose you are to somehow put them in a different enclosure.
People like myself who cannot use science. Because we can't measure and interpret the data. Will use our instincts or ears and listen to experiences of people we trust. (Who can one trust these days?)
People like that. Call them whatever you like. I believe most would call them fools. Would use something non-magnetic. Like wood. And seal it with something easy to get like beeswax. This MIGHT improve susceptibility to microphonics. But it MIGHT also be because of a non-magnetic case.
It is interesting to know that some of the highly regarded caps like those made for VH Audio..the v-caps, also use a non-magnetic case. (If not all high-end caps, coincidence or ?)
"Despite the higher expense, the V-Cap design team selected a premium grade solid brass cannister*, deemed to be sonically transparent and structurally superior to other materials tested."
Unfortunately no data on that either. Only the word "deemed".
They are run nude, and I understand that this modification simply removes a large chunk of metal which is capacitively coupled to the outer foil.. I have a number of friends who make this mod and claim both audible and measurable differences - they're EE types and not given to voodoo science, I know them well so I take them at their word. I'm just chicken.. 😀
Interestingly, most of my teflon caps are microphonic, and the metal sleeved Russian made caps I mentioned are not immune either, although far from the worst.
Most foil types I have used seem to be moderately to extremely microphonic regardless of how they are made, or what the dielectric is, hand wound types do seem marginally worse, but sound as good as anything I have heard. Physically large capacitors are always worse.
I use the teflon Vcaps and I really like them, at this point despite their horrendous expense I am unlikely to use anything else in a critical location. There is nothing else I have heard that is less capacitor than straight wire than these. They are transparent.
Interestingly, most of my teflon caps are microphonic, and the metal sleeved Russian made caps I mentioned are not immune either, although far from the worst.
Most foil types I have used seem to be moderately to extremely microphonic regardless of how they are made, or what the dielectric is, hand wound types do seem marginally worse, but sound as good as anything I have heard. Physically large capacitors are always worse.
I use the teflon Vcaps and I really like them, at this point despite their horrendous expense I am unlikely to use anything else in a critical location. There is nothing else I have heard that is less capacitor than straight wire than these. They are transparent.
Ebony tubes, anyone?
OK,I agree it is somewhat over the top ...http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/yamamoto6/2_open3.jpg
MRupp said:
Ebony tubes, anyone?
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/yamamoto6/2_open3.jpg
Ebony, linoleum, asphalt in aluminum.
Wavebourn said:
I guess they would at least be pretty non-microphonic and a great conversation piece...
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