Hi! Before I go into the Anthology build, I'm trying to first carefully calculate costs and predict possible ways in which I should go.
To start off, I have some questions:
1. For building the crossovers, I have found out that Jim stated in his plans that the tweeters should have 8.800uF capacitors. I assume he means 8.8uF (European notation is a little different with , and .) but I find no capacitors of such size. Should I therefore buy 2 capacitors and try to find ones that would add to each other to get exactly that measurement? Or should I rather buy 9.0uF or 8.2u F?
2. I tried to find some objective talk on which parts matter in quality and which don't (like super expensive cables which is propagated by a lot of people, so I don't know who to trust with capacitor quality). Could someone guide me on which parts matter? Capacitors, resistors, inductors... I'm trying to be on a budget but since I'm building Anthologies... I can spend a bit more on these electronic parts if it really is worth it. I saw some people claiming they hear differences between high grade capacitors of different lines and some claiming that as long as the quality is good (like ClarityCap PX), it's not worth paying more because there will be no difference. If it makes a difference, which ones are worth upgrading? I see people usually get these 82uF ones cheaper like ClarityCap PX or even Audyn Q4 (that would reduce the cost dramatically). Where does it make a difference? Will it make a difference where the capacitors are wired between signal wire and ground? (Woofers and mids have these 82uF capacitors mounted like that, the 8.8uF and 20uF are directly on the signal line)
3. Can I purchase capacitors of a reputable brand like ClarityCap and assume the capacitance will be correct without having to buy 5x more parts and picking ones closest to each other? Will that also work for Audyn?
4. If the components do matter, would it be possible to make an external upgradable crossover so I could switch these parts to better ones later on? As far as I understand, when I glue the speaker and install drivers, to upgrade the crossovers I would have to remove the drivers? Which are blocked by the front baffle? I don't understand the purpose of dual baffles sadly, could anyone explain how these are mounted? I thought the front baffle would cover the drivers but it seems it doesn't, so what purpose does it serve?
5. Could someone recommend me some inductors and resistors that I could buy in Europe or from China? Madisound wants 250$ for shipping to EU...
Thanks in advance! I hope to find some knowledge here, the entire thing is very confusing to me as of right now... Sorry for the question dump 🙁
To start off, I have some questions:
1. For building the crossovers, I have found out that Jim stated in his plans that the tweeters should have 8.800uF capacitors. I assume he means 8.8uF (European notation is a little different with , and .) but I find no capacitors of such size. Should I therefore buy 2 capacitors and try to find ones that would add to each other to get exactly that measurement? Or should I rather buy 9.0uF or 8.2u F?
2. I tried to find some objective talk on which parts matter in quality and which don't (like super expensive cables which is propagated by a lot of people, so I don't know who to trust with capacitor quality). Could someone guide me on which parts matter? Capacitors, resistors, inductors... I'm trying to be on a budget but since I'm building Anthologies... I can spend a bit more on these electronic parts if it really is worth it. I saw some people claiming they hear differences between high grade capacitors of different lines and some claiming that as long as the quality is good (like ClarityCap PX), it's not worth paying more because there will be no difference. If it makes a difference, which ones are worth upgrading? I see people usually get these 82uF ones cheaper like ClarityCap PX or even Audyn Q4 (that would reduce the cost dramatically). Where does it make a difference? Will it make a difference where the capacitors are wired between signal wire and ground? (Woofers and mids have these 82uF capacitors mounted like that, the 8.8uF and 20uF are directly on the signal line)
3. Can I purchase capacitors of a reputable brand like ClarityCap and assume the capacitance will be correct without having to buy 5x more parts and picking ones closest to each other? Will that also work for Audyn?
4. If the components do matter, would it be possible to make an external upgradable crossover so I could switch these parts to better ones later on? As far as I understand, when I glue the speaker and install drivers, to upgrade the crossovers I would have to remove the drivers? Which are blocked by the front baffle? I don't understand the purpose of dual baffles sadly, could anyone explain how these are mounted? I thought the front baffle would cover the drivers but it seems it doesn't, so what purpose does it serve?
5. Could someone recommend me some inductors and resistors that I could buy in Europe or from China? Madisound wants 250$ for shipping to EU...
Thanks in advance! I hope to find some knowledge here, the entire thing is very confusing to me as of right now... Sorry for the question dump 🙁
1. 6.8+1+1 (or 5.6+3.3)
2. You can use Non Polarised caps for a first version and then upgrade to MKT or MKP for the ones on the signal path (in series to the drivers); NP caps in parallel to the drivers are fine, especially the bigger ones on the woofer.
3. you have component/production tolerances in any case/brand.
4. External xo is better for future modification but not so practical. You can mount it on a removable rear panel or just behind the woofer to have an easy access.
5. I think there are many in your own country, but give a look here
https://www.rumoh.eu/crossover-parts/
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/loudspeaker-components.html
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/crossover-components/
2. You can use Non Polarised caps for a first version and then upgrade to MKT or MKP for the ones on the signal path (in series to the drivers); NP caps in parallel to the drivers are fine, especially the bigger ones on the woofer.
3. you have component/production tolerances in any case/brand.
4. External xo is better for future modification but not so practical. You can mount it on a removable rear panel or just behind the woofer to have an easy access.
5. I think there are many in your own country, but give a look here
https://www.rumoh.eu/crossover-parts/
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/loudspeaker-components.html
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/crossover-components/
Thanks a lot! I would like to ask some follow ups if I could:
1. This approach would introduce a lot more cost to the system, is it a better idea than going for 8.2uF? I could also try go get the 9.1uF versions. Would it matter much for treble capacitors? Should I instead try to get a few cheaper ones to get perfect 8.8uF or get some much more expensive 8.2uF?
2. I can get film capacitors from the start, I assume it is the cost of doing bussiness with DIY speakers, but I don't know how much of a difference would it make to try and get much better ones.
3. Thanks! If these are enough then I think it should be fine then.
4. Why is External XO not practical? Just the need to mount it or some issues for example with passing the cables through or sealing the cabinet? Where is an optimal place to mount XO anyways? And should I make it on 1 board or split into 3 boards - one for woofers, one for mids and one for the tweeter?
Thanks again!
1. This approach would introduce a lot more cost to the system, is it a better idea than going for 8.2uF? I could also try go get the 9.1uF versions. Would it matter much for treble capacitors? Should I instead try to get a few cheaper ones to get perfect 8.8uF or get some much more expensive 8.2uF?
2. I can get film capacitors from the start, I assume it is the cost of doing bussiness with DIY speakers, but I don't know how much of a difference would it make to try and get much better ones.
3. Thanks! If these are enough then I think it should be fine then.
4. Why is External XO not practical? Just the need to mount it or some issues for example with passing the cables through or sealing the cabinet? Where is an optimal place to mount XO anyways? And should I make it on 1 board or split into 3 boards - one for woofers, one for mids and one for the tweeter?
Thanks again!
I also have a question on coils. We can't get the 7.0mH 15AWG Sledgehammer here in Europe 🙁 Will 6.8mH Mundorf be a good stand-in? It has a bit lower resistance, how much of a difference would this make? There is a 7.0mH coil with low DCR: https://www.sonopart.com/spd/000-5379/Jantzen-H-vasmagos-tekercs-7000mH-3-0300-wire-1401 but it's a Permite core.
An external box for a filter is redundant (in my opinion) because you have another box in the room (but that's me).
7mH is hard to find, 6.8 should be fine and so the Jantzen you found.
The cap on the tweeter is 6.8uF and not 8.8.
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...-wire-o40xh37mm-with-backed-varnish-wire.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...-capacitor-82uf-5-100vdc-35vac-o18xl39mm.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...-wire-o40xh20mm-with-backed-varnish-wire.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo.../scr-mkp-capacitor-82uf-ppe-serie-630vdc.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...tlhp-mkp-capacitor-10uf-5-250vdc-46x23mm.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...-wire-o40xh20mm-with-backed-varnish-wire.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...lhp-mkp-capacitor-6-8uf-5-250vdc-31x23mm.html
7mH is hard to find, 6.8 should be fine and so the Jantzen you found.
The cap on the tweeter is 6.8uF and not 8.8.
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...-wire-o40xh37mm-with-backed-varnish-wire.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...-capacitor-82uf-5-100vdc-35vac-o18xl39mm.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...-wire-o40xh20mm-with-backed-varnish-wire.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo.../scr-mkp-capacitor-82uf-ppe-serie-630vdc.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...tlhp-mkp-capacitor-10uf-5-250vdc-46x23mm.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...-wire-o40xh20mm-with-backed-varnish-wire.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/lo...lhp-mkp-capacitor-6-8uf-5-250vdc-31x23mm.html
@shadowplay62 - the 6.8uf capacitor makes more sense, but where did you get that schematic? I had checked Curt's page and saw the same odd 8.8uf that the OP did.
@Vedemin - some people have strong opinions on more expensive capacitors so you are likely to get conflicting opinions. All I'll say is that there is very little objective evidence that they make a difference. I know many people, myself included, that are perfectly satisfied with the Audyn Q4 capacitors.
@Vedemin - some people have strong opinions on more expensive capacitors so you are likely to get conflicting opinions. All I'll say is that there is very little objective evidence that they make a difference. I know many people, myself included, that are perfectly satisfied with the Audyn Q4 capacitors.
Yep, Audyn Cap Q4 is a very good capacitor:
Source: https://www-jobst--audio-de.transla...l=auto&_x_tr_tl=de&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Source: https://www-jobst--audio-de.transla...l=auto&_x_tr_tl=de&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp
@shadowplay62 The schematic I got is for Anthology II, not I, which did have the 6.8uF capacitors. I also checked the BOM and they do indeed have that around 8.8uF capacitor - the BOM I have attached is directly from @jholtz .
Thanks for the information that the 6.8 would be fine, but another question comes in - is it better to get a permite core 7.0mH with 0.3 Ohm DCR, 6.8mH with 0.26 Ohm DCR steel laminate inductor or maybe a IC187 7.0mH 18 AWG Laminated Steel I-Core Inductor with 0.61 Ohm DCR? I know the Sledgehammer 15AWG used by Madisound has a bit over 0.3 Ohm resistance but the only way I can get that value is either 6.8mH steel laminate from Mundorf or the permite core from Jentzen. I have seen people often say ferrite cores are very bad for audio, does it extend to permite cores?
I found that while Jentzen claims permite is significantly better than ferrite, people claim it actually suffers from the same problems: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-crossover-peaking-issues.356549/post-6261921
So therefore it seems that the choice is between a wrong inductance coil with good DCR and a good inductance coil with high DCR... If anyone knows a place I could get steel laminate coils with <0.35 Ohm resistance in Europe, please let me know.
Thanks for the information that the 6.8 would be fine, but another question comes in - is it better to get a permite core 7.0mH with 0.3 Ohm DCR, 6.8mH with 0.26 Ohm DCR steel laminate inductor or maybe a IC187 7.0mH 18 AWG Laminated Steel I-Core Inductor with 0.61 Ohm DCR? I know the Sledgehammer 15AWG used by Madisound has a bit over 0.3 Ohm resistance but the only way I can get that value is either 6.8mH steel laminate from Mundorf or the permite core from Jentzen. I have seen people often say ferrite cores are very bad for audio, does it extend to permite cores?
I found that while Jentzen claims permite is significantly better than ferrite, people claim it actually suffers from the same problems: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-crossover-peaking-issues.356549/post-6261921
So therefore it seems that the choice is between a wrong inductance coil with good DCR and a good inductance coil with high DCR... If anyone knows a place I could get steel laminate coils with <0.35 Ohm resistance in Europe, please let me know.
Here from the pdf included in the frame https://www.speakerdesignworks.com/anthology because in the OP is not specified that is the version II.
@Vedemin
6.8+2.2 and you get 9uF
As to the coil, I would chose the one with the same inductance value and the nearest value for the dcr.
In the 2000s, German manufacturer and distributor Intertechnik published distortion measurements of different coil types in the yearly catalogue, also HobbyHifi magazine did similar measurements at that time. Best result gave Laminated Steel I-Core Inductors, since then I took this type whenever I needed a larger coil for the lowpass in series to a woofer in a 3-way. Large wire diameter aircoil would be perfect but too expensive....
Right now the best think would be to calculate total cost based on all caps being non polarized electrolyte types,
basic resistors, basic air core inductors and basic ferrite core inductors. Jantzen permite core is alright. Don't worry
about anything.
I found a shop in India that ships to Poland for cheap: theaudiocrafts.com
It seems legit and it would allow me to massively reduce the costs. They are the only 7mH steel laminate coils... And they cost 3 times less than Mundorf while having good DCR and actual 7mH. They also source very cheap foil type capacitors - price is 4 times lower than ClarityCap on the big 82uF caps, the tolerance is 3% - seems good. I would most likely wire the 8.8 Ohm tweeter caps as 6.8+1+1 as suggested by @shadowplay62 which would allow a perfect match. The only issue is that their air coils have more resistance than those available in Europe but are also much cheaper, also sadly they only have 0.68mH coil instead of suggested 0.67mH but Jim himself used a 0.68 in his BOM so I should be fine on that.
Resistors are also so much cheaper there. Do you think it's a good idea to order from there?
It seems legit and it would allow me to massively reduce the costs. They are the only 7mH steel laminate coils... And they cost 3 times less than Mundorf while having good DCR and actual 7mH. They also source very cheap foil type capacitors - price is 4 times lower than ClarityCap on the big 82uF caps, the tolerance is 3% - seems good. I would most likely wire the 8.8 Ohm tweeter caps as 6.8+1+1 as suggested by @shadowplay62 which would allow a perfect match. The only issue is that their air coils have more resistance than those available in Europe but are also much cheaper, also sadly they only have 0.68mH coil instead of suggested 0.67mH but Jim himself used a 0.68 in his BOM so I should be fine on that.
Resistors are also so much cheaper there. Do you think it's a good idea to order from there?
Regarding exact values for crossover components, try simulating them (XSim) and check your self that there is no need of perfect matches.
See below an example of a filter with 8.8uF and 9uF (6.8+2.2 easy to find). In the worst scenario, the difference is around 0.3 dB. Imagine variations you have in your room and listening position - we talk about several dB's, so no need to get worried about small micro variations.
Regarding component quality, I recommend you to make your own evaluation and get surprised.
Try yourself using a type of capacitor considered "horrible" and them switch for another "super quality" and try to hear the difference.
It's worth to look for robustness in order to make sure capacitors will last. This is more a concern when using electrolytic big capacitances in mid or woofer filters - make sure the average RMS current is within the life span you expect (>30years at least) - check datasheet.
For tweeter, which normally requires small capacitances (<10uF) go for film capacitors (lower ESR) and you'll be good.
About resistors. People mention not to use winding wire resistors due to inductance.
Take one and count the number of turns and size. Calculate the inductance (or check in datasheet) and simulate it in XSim, for example.
Just put a resistor and an inductor in series. In general the difference at audio impedance and frequency ranges is minimum.
Video and RF applications are another story.
About cables. If you plan to use a short 3m parallel cable, there is not much difference between a super expensive cable and a regular mains 1.5mm2 cable you buy at no cost in any electric store in the neighborhood.
Comparison between 8.8uF and 9uF:
See below an example of a filter with 8.8uF and 9uF (6.8+2.2 easy to find). In the worst scenario, the difference is around 0.3 dB. Imagine variations you have in your room and listening position - we talk about several dB's, so no need to get worried about small micro variations.
Regarding component quality, I recommend you to make your own evaluation and get surprised.
Try yourself using a type of capacitor considered "horrible" and them switch for another "super quality" and try to hear the difference.
It's worth to look for robustness in order to make sure capacitors will last. This is more a concern when using electrolytic big capacitances in mid or woofer filters - make sure the average RMS current is within the life span you expect (>30years at least) - check datasheet.
For tweeter, which normally requires small capacitances (<10uF) go for film capacitors (lower ESR) and you'll be good.
About resistors. People mention not to use winding wire resistors due to inductance.
Take one and count the number of turns and size. Calculate the inductance (or check in datasheet) and simulate it in XSim, for example.
Just put a resistor and an inductor in series. In general the difference at audio impedance and frequency ranges is minimum.
Video and RF applications are another story.
About cables. If you plan to use a short 3m parallel cable, there is not much difference between a super expensive cable and a regular mains 1.5mm2 cable you buy at no cost in any electric store in the neighborhood.
Comparison between 8.8uF and 9uF:
Prices on websites outside the EU do not include VAT and generally you have to pay duty taxes and custom fees, and these are calculated on the value of the stuff you buy plus the shipment costs: that means at least a 30% surplus.
Lot of talking with calm voice and no measurements, no references and no actual evidences.
-Spent 15min about the limitations of a 2-way speaker. If we are talking about quality, just go for 3-way and remove these limitations. Stretching speaker FR here and there is for cost reduction.
-Inductance in resistors. What is the influence in SPL dB? Some uH over 4 to 8ohm impedance will not change much in audio frequency
-Twisting speaker cables to avoid interference between them? What is the coupling level speaker wires have to each other?
Over 4 to 8ohm, how much signal are you able to couple on audio range? This is not radio frequency.
-Cut cables and take note of the "cooper orientation" so as to not have mismatch between L and R channels? No comments.
-He suggests crossover random upgrades without any reference. "decrease DCR, change from 5mH to 6mH", "increase a bit here and there".
There is technology, procedures, measuremets etc behind building a crossover.
-Spent 15min about the limitations of a 2-way speaker. If we are talking about quality, just go for 3-way and remove these limitations. Stretching speaker FR here and there is for cost reduction.
-Inductance in resistors. What is the influence in SPL dB? Some uH over 4 to 8ohm impedance will not change much in audio frequency
-Twisting speaker cables to avoid interference between them? What is the coupling level speaker wires have to each other?
Over 4 to 8ohm, how much signal are you able to couple on audio range? This is not radio frequency.
-Cut cables and take note of the "cooper orientation" so as to not have mismatch between L and R channels? No comments.
-He suggests crossover random upgrades without any reference. "decrease DCR, change from 5mH to 6mH", "increase a bit here and there".
There is technology, procedures, measuremets etc behind building a crossover.
Hello chaps, noob here, i would like to make the Mechano23 crossover but SoundImports does not have the correct capacitor value what do?
Correct cap value = 18 µF | 5% | 160 V
They only have the Jantzen Audio 001-6144 | 18 µF | 5% | 100 or 250 V
1) Will 100v be okay (cheaper €1.49 - please say yes 🙂)
2) shall i use 2 parallel caps of 10 + 8.2 at 160v each (€10.64 - 7 times the price of 100v above 💰)
3) audiophonics.fr have the right one but its €4.90 and shipping fees/VAT etc
What do bro's, what do?
Correct cap value = 18 µF | 5% | 160 V
They only have the Jantzen Audio 001-6144 | 18 µF | 5% | 100 or 250 V
1) Will 100v be okay (cheaper €1.49 - please say yes 🙂)
2) shall i use 2 parallel caps of 10 + 8.2 at 160v each (€10.64 - 7 times the price of 100v above 💰)
3) audiophonics.fr have the right one but its €4.90 and shipping fees/VAT etc
What do bro's, what do?
Attachments
@ubermensch in general as long as you have good enough capacitors, it doesn't matter what you take, you can save A LOT by not going Jentzen.
Also in general stacking the capacitors is fine as long as the capacitance total is close. But you can easily find 18uF from for example ClarityCap. Want to go much much cheaper? Try to get polish Polnik capacitors - amazing prices, still sound the same.
I myself won't go for 100V, someone more knowledgeable than me needs to comment on voltage.
Also in general stacking the capacitors is fine as long as the capacitance total is close. But you can easily find 18uF from for example ClarityCap. Want to go much much cheaper? Try to get polish Polnik capacitors - amazing prices, still sound the same.
I myself won't go for 100V, someone more knowledgeable than me needs to comment on voltage.
I was massively using parallel capacitors in my passive crossover, sometimes as many as 3. In fact, using parallel caps is often recommended for the reasons:
On the picture, please remove those white resistors, they have some inductance because the wire inside is twisted. Being right next to the inductor will cross feed them. Just use those green $1.5 parts express resistors.
Offtopic update: btw I consider Poland a massive HiFi powerhouse, more and more various great products are coming from Poland. This must come with a good market for parts, it's a matter of asking around or some research.
- You can get the exact value, not even by value but by measuring the result with a microphone. Croco clips are your friends
- You can get the value with whatever spare you have in the toolbox
- You can get most of the value with a cheap cap, and then add the final delta with the best you can. High value high end caps are expensive
- It's really nice to add a tiny bypass cap with value of 0.1 or even 0.01 to sprinkle cleaner highs
On the picture, please remove those white resistors, they have some inductance because the wire inside is twisted. Being right next to the inductor will cross feed them. Just use those green $1.5 parts express resistors.
Offtopic update: btw I consider Poland a massive HiFi powerhouse, more and more various great products are coming from Poland. This must come with a good market for parts, it's a matter of asking around or some research.
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