I don't know if the Dayton DIY 2003 wire test was ever posted online, but Bob Cordell and Todd Griffin were the co-conspirators. I was surprised that there even was a difference. There were a good amount of witnesses to justify I did it.
The cap test was not fully documented online, TMK, but Bob Cordell and Neil Davis have both had tests in this manner at DC-DIY 2004, and Dayton DIY 2004, and Bob did his in both locations. Bob briefly mentions it in his workshops for the RMAF of that same year IIRC: CordellAudio.com - Home
That's about all I can post on this referencing angle.
Later,
Wolf
The cap test was not fully documented online, TMK, but Bob Cordell and Neil Davis have both had tests in this manner at DC-DIY 2004, and Dayton DIY 2004, and Bob did his in both locations. Bob briefly mentions it in his workshops for the RMAF of that same year IIRC: CordellAudio.com - Home
That's about all I can post on this referencing angle.
Later,
Wolf
I wish I could be there as well, but I'm out on the left coast. It would be cool to meet some of you guys.
What I mean is that there are some issues with the test that we discussed before that will sway the results. Just look at the trouble clarity cap went through to get a discernible difference accepted by peers. I know its easy for me to sit on the sidelines and criticize and for that I apologize. This situation reminds me of the Puget sound showdown--a lot of effort to have a flawed test with less than useful results that are easily rectified on the cheap. The participants will have a number of non-auditory cues as to what is what and I'd try to minimize them. It would be great to read about those being reduced and the results of the improved test.
I mean no ill will, just stating what I see as the facts. Ask SY for his input on how to design a more meaningful test without going in to the rigors of the AES level, but something doable, meaningful, and uses the device you worked so hard to build. I bet he could quickly devise simple test improvement that would be more interesting. Then again, maybe no one will want to do what he suggests. We're still sadly waiting on a cable DBT from months ago in a trashed thread.
Anyway, I'm sure it will be a good time in Iowa.
Dan
What I mean is that there are some issues with the test that we discussed before that will sway the results. Just look at the trouble clarity cap went through to get a discernible difference accepted by peers. I know its easy for me to sit on the sidelines and criticize and for that I apologize. This situation reminds me of the Puget sound showdown--a lot of effort to have a flawed test with less than useful results that are easily rectified on the cheap. The participants will have a number of non-auditory cues as to what is what and I'd try to minimize them. It would be great to read about those being reduced and the results of the improved test.
I mean no ill will, just stating what I see as the facts. Ask SY for his input on how to design a more meaningful test without going in to the rigors of the AES level, but something doable, meaningful, and uses the device you worked so hard to build. I bet he could quickly devise simple test improvement that would be more interesting. Then again, maybe no one will want to do what he suggests. We're still sadly waiting on a cable DBT from months ago in a trashed thread.
Anyway, I'm sure it will be a good time in Iowa.
Dan
1-I am never going to satisfy everybody with this test, as cap and other audibility tests go. The fact I am zero'd in on is the capacitance value. ESR will be a change I will admit through different caps' constructions and other criteria, but what I'm hearing is not level or output based. It is a character that is not due to that. Would anybody else actually match ESR in their speakers if they weren't doing a test? I highly doubt it. The ESR is a spec that is characteristic to the cap itself, and while to some it could be proven as the reason or part of the reason a cap sounds different, it is still a characteristic that is native to said cap, and has no bearing on my test whatsoever.
2-I have not totally disclosed how I am conducting this test so as to not sway the listeners beforehand. Please do not think you know the entirety of the process and make claims that are inconsistent with this test.
3-You are not seeing all of the facts, please see statement #2.
4-I don't even know or acknowledge who 'SY' is in reality, or recognize why he would be a reputable source to improve my test, because I have done my homework. I am doing and conducting this test, so I see no reason for others to disqualify it purely on their thoughts of the matter. There will be a full writeup on the details after it is through, but I might want another venue/group to attempt it for repeatability sake. See #2 again please.
5- Agreed.
Later,
Wolf
I was hoping what's been discussed so far wasn't the entirety of the test controls, but it doesn't sound very promising that any meaningful data will be obtained either way. Stating the exact conditions of the test isn't misleading at all and won't sway the results. In fact it would help you receive good constructive criticism, a chance to fix any oversights in advance and even allow potential participants some practice. It's a win-win situation.
SY's not the only one who sees obvious flaws in what's been stated about the test so far. Since he's smarter than I am, I'd listen to him is what I was saying. I could understand you doubting my input. There are plenty more on this board that could help navigate, but the subject matter is perhaps too stale and unfortunately contentious for them to participate it seems. Personally I regret getting into the discussion. I should have just bailed out after my first post. Cap and cable threads are just fruitless and get people worked up over nothing anyone should ever be worked up over.
No point in discussing anything unless there is actually a discussion.
Dan
SY's not the only one who sees obvious flaws in what's been stated about the test so far. Since he's smarter than I am, I'd listen to him is what I was saying. I could understand you doubting my input. There are plenty more on this board that could help navigate, but the subject matter is perhaps too stale and unfortunately contentious for them to participate it seems. Personally I regret getting into the discussion. I should have just bailed out after my first post. Cap and cable threads are just fruitless and get people worked up over nothing anyone should ever be worked up over.
No point in discussing anything unless there is actually a discussion.
Dan
Don't let 'em drag you down Wolf... some of the supposedly smart people on this site have huge biases of their own in regard to caps (and cables), and no matter what you do for your test they're going to find fault. So although your test won't be the be all to end all, none-the-less I anticipate that there will be something to be learned for the more open minded amongst us, and I look forward to the results.
I'm going to 'go out on a limb here'and predict the NPE's will show the most difference with film caps and there will be less difference between the film caps.
Anybody agree with this?
agreed. i dont think theres much difference to be found between polyester and polypropylene, except maybe in internal inductance
Thanks for the support, McCormack and Mikey! I'm not letting them drag me down, or I would assume forfeit and hang my head.
I am proceeding as planned!
As to the NPE thought, SD- there is a big difference between those and polys.
Mondo- I think it's subtle, but it is there. However, there have been greater differences in some polypropylene caps than I experienced with mylar and poly.
Later,
Wolf
I am proceeding as planned!
As to the NPE thought, SD- there is a big difference between those and polys.
Mondo- I think it's subtle, but it is there. However, there have been greater differences in some polypropylene caps than I experienced with mylar and poly.
Later,
Wolf
Thanks for the support, McCormack and Mikey! I'm not letting them drag me down, or I would assume forfeit and hang my head.
I am proceeding as planned!
As to the NPE thought, SD- there is a big difference between those and polys.
Mondo- I think it's subtle, but it is there. However, there have been greater differences in some polypropylene caps than I experienced with mylar and poly.
Later,
Wolf
Good luck with your test. Wish I could be there and looking forward to your post-test results.
Thanks for the support, McCormack and Mikey! I'm not letting them drag me down, or I would assume forfeit and hang my head.
I am proceeding as planned!
As to the NPE thought, SD- there is a big difference between those and polys.
Mondo- I think it's subtle, but it is there. However, there have been greater differences in some polypropylene caps than I experienced with mylar and poly.
Later,
Wolf
Afterthought... At the end of the test or before your report, be sure to get the caps you used in the test accurately tested for ESR and DF (if you haven't already) and include that data.
Thanks for the support, McCormack and Mikey! I'm not letting them drag me down, or I would assume forfeit and hang my head.
I am proceeding as planned!
As to the NPE thought, SD- there is a big difference between those and polys.
Mondo- I think it's subtle, but it is there. However, there have been greater differences in some polypropylene caps than I experienced with mylar and poly.
Later,
Wolf
Why worry,
let J.Curl and the other designers,that are able to hear the differences,design their equipment,as they hear and measure.
Buyers,can modify them later,to suit their fancy,and sell the boutique capacitors subsituted,to Ebay.
B.L
I've also wondered along these lines if that harmonic fingerprint may change a bit depending upon the voltage levels involved??
It's not hard to test that theory and I'm sure others would be interested in reading the results.
I believe they do in many cases. That may be one of the reasons that some of the radio transmission mica caps were popular in audio, despite the large size and high cost. They were built very solidly to take high powers. They tend not to change within large swings of power or voltage.
As Brett says, not hard to test.
As Brett says, not hard to test.
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