I'm looking at throwing a 10 to 20 farad capacitor next to my earthquake amp and am kind of amazed they advertise these asian made capacitors for so cheap? Are they really the capacity they claim? There are so many random sizes (10,12,15,18,20, etc.) in the same shell, it makes me wonder if they are somehow cheating in the description.
Any particular reason you want a cap?
A cap discharge in a car audio system is basically like having a little battery that will discharge almost instantley once the amp cannot draw more load from the battery. You'll also run into a problem with the cap having to recharge which with 20 farads is no quick little charge. This causes the amp to not be able to draw the proper power consumption needed for full efficiency.
A better way to blow 100 dollars is to buy a second a battery or upgrade your current one to a Kinetic which are high output dry cell batteries. Also the alternator and all cabling should be upgraded to a higher gauge before you even consider a cap. This way you will have a much more stable system that will be upgradeable with minimal cost involved.
Just my two cents.
Happy Bumpin!
A cap discharge in a car audio system is basically like having a little battery that will discharge almost instantley once the amp cannot draw more load from the battery. You'll also run into a problem with the cap having to recharge which with 20 farads is no quick little charge. This causes the amp to not be able to draw the proper power consumption needed for full efficiency.
A better way to blow 100 dollars is to buy a second a battery or upgrade your current one to a Kinetic which are high output dry cell batteries. Also the alternator and all cabling should be upgraded to a higher gauge before you even consider a cap. This way you will have a much more stable system that will be upgradeable with minimal cost involved.
Just my two cents.
Happy Bumpin!
Thanks for the reply
I already have excellent wiring. All underhood 12v cables are upgraded, including the alternator cable. The alternator is a 90 amp model. The problem is I'm running three amps... one earthquake phd2 (2krms), and two a600.2 (1.2krms), they are running at 4 ohms/chanel though so only around 1600rms capability theoretically. Each a600 has a 4gauge and the bass amp has two 4gauge. I'm already running a small agm battery under the hood which kicks the stock lead acid battery's butt. I already have the equivalent ot the 600 model under my hood now. I'm trying to avoid getting the 1800 amp version because of the weight.
I already have excellent wiring. All underhood 12v cables are upgraded, including the alternator cable. The alternator is a 90 amp model. The problem is I'm running three amps... one earthquake phd2 (2krms), and two a600.2 (1.2krms), they are running at 4 ohms/chanel though so only around 1600rms capability theoretically. Each a600 has a 4gauge and the bass amp has two 4gauge. I'm already running a small agm battery under the hood which kicks the stock lead acid battery's butt. I already have the equivalent ot the 600 model under my hood now. I'm trying to avoid getting the 1800 amp version because of the weight.
With running all those wires without a distro block is not the best option. I would run one single 0/1 OFC cable to the rear and distro to each amp. This way you won't run into any high resistance problems as you are right now. Also, what are your grounding points like?
The 600 series is a baby battery used mainly in over the top systems as a backup only. It simply does not perform in a high output enviroment such as yours. How is the grounding on the amps? did you grind to bare metal and etch the ground or simply screw it into the sheet metal. A good choice for you is to create a grounding block out of some sheet metal and ground all the amps to one single point on a 12" piece of stock.
i was able to run dual Solobaric L7's with a zx1500.1 and a tang-band custom component setup up front and dual zx350.4 on a stock alternator with no cap and only a 600 as a backup with zero voltage drop on full load.
Another reason many people feel they need to have a cap is because they do not have the gain properly set. Did you tune it by ear or use a voltmeter.
With that system I see no reason why you would ever need to have a cap. It would cause you more headache then what it would be worth.
The 600 series is a baby battery used mainly in over the top systems as a backup only. It simply does not perform in a high output enviroment such as yours. How is the grounding on the amps? did you grind to bare metal and etch the ground or simply screw it into the sheet metal. A good choice for you is to create a grounding block out of some sheet metal and ground all the amps to one single point on a 12" piece of stock.
i was able to run dual Solobaric L7's with a zx1500.1 and a tang-band custom component setup up front and dual zx350.4 on a stock alternator with no cap and only a 600 as a backup with zero voltage drop on full load.
Another reason many people feel they need to have a cap is because they do not have the gain properly set. Did you tune it by ear or use a voltmeter.
With that system I see no reason why you would ever need to have a cap. It would cause you more headache then what it would be worth.
Buy a US made REAL Ultra Cap see below:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220300654078&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012
These sell for new at about $209.00 each for 58 farad You won't find any deals like that from a car stereo maker even in China...Good luck, oh just goggle the name brand and dealers will pop up in your search for these US made products...Merry Christmas....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220300654078&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012
These sell for new at about $209.00 each for 58 farad You won't find any deals like that from a car stereo maker even in China...Good luck, oh just goggle the name brand and dealers will pop up in your search for these US made products...Merry Christmas....
Logikal said:
Frankly I prefer seperate wires for each amp directly from the battery versus splitting one. Every amp has sufficient wire gauge, its more of a lack of power from under the hood problem. I won't go over my setup as it gets old explaining it several times. I've posted it before so if you're really trying to find any other flaw in my wiring you can find it in a search.
The purpose of this thread was to discuss the possibility of a cheap priced capacitor having the actual claimed farad level, not to start a discussion on my audio system. I appreciate if you're trying to help, but I'm not looking for wiring advice, simply trying to see if anyone has opinions on the build quality of random cap brands. I know the technological capability is there to use carbon/foil/aluminum caps and get high farad capacity, I just want to know if they are legit.
1moreamp said:Buy a US made REAL Ultra Cap see below:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220300654078&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012
These sell for new at about $209.00 each for 58 farad You won't find any deals like that from a car stereo maker even in China...Good luck, oh just goggle the name brand and dealers will pop up in your search for these US made products...Merry Christmas....
Wow, interesting. Those 2.7v caps are the ones batcap has been using for a few years now. I disassembeled one a few years ago when my friend bought it and was amazed at the capacity of each 2.7v cap, and how they series and paralleled several to get the correct farad and voltage rating.
I'm sure the cheapo cap companies have access to those but whether or not they actually use enough to create the stated capacity is questionable.
Yup These are the real deal as used in electric cars. I even saw a motorcycle powered off these the only draw back being that the electric motor fried itself on every pass at the track at about 250 MPH...
Maxwell makes nothing but high capacity capacitors to my knowledge so i would guess that they are very legit. I have the schematic for those Alumapro/PG carbon caps and they all use a huge bank of 2.7 volt caps to get the value that they spec.
They either use active or passive voltage balancing to keep the separate caps from getting more voltage then rated. but I have seen these car amp caps blow them selves up because of this.
If you look at the specific one I posted from e-bay you will see it has less separate caps then the ones car amp companies sell. Less parts usually means lower failure rates of the device.
Plus at 58 farad per unit, and bought directly from the maker of even through a dealer they cost less per farad that ANYTHING a car amp company offers by at least half and more like two thirds the cost of a comparable Alumapro product on the market.
Maxwell makes nothing but high capacity capacitors to my knowledge so i would guess that they are very legit. I have the schematic for those Alumapro/PG carbon caps and they all use a huge bank of 2.7 volt caps to get the value that they spec.
They either use active or passive voltage balancing to keep the separate caps from getting more voltage then rated. but I have seen these car amp caps blow them selves up because of this.
If you look at the specific one I posted from e-bay you will see it has less separate caps then the ones car amp companies sell. Less parts usually means lower failure rates of the device.
Plus at 58 farad per unit, and bought directly from the maker of even through a dealer they cost less per farad that ANYTHING a car amp company offers by at least half and more like two thirds the cost of a comparable Alumapro product on the market.
I was pondering replacing my underhood battery with one about twice the size and moving the small one next to the bass amp. I checked kinetik's battery website. For a system running 3200 watts rms they recommended:
(1) kc1600 under the hood
(2) kc1800's near the bass amp
I lol'ed.... 150 extra lbs in my car, NOT!
Maybe just the 1600 or 1800 under the hood and my small one in the trunk, but if that doesn't help substantially I'll look into an overpriced 140 amp subaru alternator. First I'm going to check the parking light system grounds and power connections. There is the possiblility they aren't getting a good connection since the hid headlights aren't even flickering or going into protection, which means they're recieving plenty of voltage.
(1) kc1600 under the hood
(2) kc1800's near the bass amp
I lol'ed.... 150 extra lbs in my car, NOT!
Maybe just the 1600 or 1800 under the hood and my small one in the trunk, but if that doesn't help substantially I'll look into an overpriced 140 amp subaru alternator. First I'm going to check the parking light system grounds and power connections. There is the possiblility they aren't getting a good connection since the hid headlights aren't even flickering or going into protection, which means they're recieving plenty of voltage.
I have one of those cheap auto jumpers with a sealed battery in it. Going to put that with my sub amp, battery is something like 6" long. If it can jump a car it should help an amp, but likely for now I will run under 800wrms anyway since I have an IB setup in there. These jumpers can be bought for ~$30 and this one was from a local auction for $20. Even had an air compressor on it. Also considered just mounting a complete one in the trunk connected, as the light and jumper capability could be handy as well as a removable 12v power source.
I have a 1f cap to use just for fun, but I'm not that sold on large banks of them. I think a battery is better, and maybe there is a way to use a smaller battery without a lot of weight. You also get more car-off power if you ever use that. If you want max output then the only way is a huge alternator at ~14v.
I have a 1f cap to use just for fun, but I'm not that sold on large banks of them. I think a battery is better, and maybe there is a way to use a smaller battery without a lot of weight. You also get more car-off power if you ever use that. If you want max output then the only way is a huge alternator at ~14v.
Caps have some advantages over SLOW lead acid battery's. And if its cold outside lead acid battery's are even SLOWER to deliver power.
Battery's have temperature relate power curves that most modern caps don't have.
Plus the modern ULTRA caps are designed for huge energy storage and fast pay out without the stress this causes other energy sources to fail prematurely. Or there really would not be a need for such things.
IMO the best solution to start with is a huge alternator. The battery is a very limited power source that was never designed for the loads that current car audio places upon them.
Then any fast recharge storage devise will aid the alternator in maintaining constant voltage to the audio equipment. Even alternators need time to respond to load changes while trying to maintain there regulated output charging voltage rate. This I feel is the place Ultra caps come into play, by buffering the loads till all the pretty much antique 12 volt auto charging system can catch up with the load demands.
now this does not mean that I condone 1.2 farad electrolytic type caps which were the first caps used for car audio. these caps value alone pretty much makes them useless except for keeping your lights from blinking at a stop light, and under large enough load even they are totally useless.
Oh that motorcycle that went 250 MPH in the quarter mile burned out its motor or it would have kept going as the ultra caps still had power left in them. it was the windings frying at high RPM's that killed the bikes endurance, not the ultra caps, as they still had enough charge to have kept the bike accelerating way past 250. These are the kinds of energy storage devices electric cars need to made marketable in today's market place.
And the old and much unimproved 12 electrical system used in cars since the model A have not really kept up with the energy demands that we currently place upon them, what with all the kilo-watt car amps out there today, and the 70 amp-hour battery's trying to power them. Its just not a pretty picture for the 12 volt scene even with class D the loads are are just astronomical nowadays. Without caps inside the amps none of this stuff would work as 12 volts just wasn't never designed to make any of this work well. In fact the car audio world has been battling the 12 volt problem for years trying to make more efficient use of the 12 volt level of power conversion. I remember a old Hifonics show van out here in Cali. even driving at 60 MPH it would shut-off the truck engine on a heavy bass hit lol lol lol A very serious power demand problem IMO....
Another thought to consider is the fact that ANY car battery will only output 12 volts, not 14.4 and that is where a ultra caps come into play as it will hold and output that 14.4 volt charge rate as its was never limited to cell output voltage limitations that the lead acid cell is limited to by design.
If 12 volts is all your looking to hold then by all means add car battery's, but if on the other hand you want 14.4 constant well then a big alternator and a bank of Ultra caps are the best way to go all day long hands down....And with all of these devices both battery's and caps alike they all have rated lifespans and once they are used up they all pretty much end up on the garbage heap, just like the cars they are made to be used in. Nothing lasts forever 🙂
Battery's have temperature relate power curves that most modern caps don't have.
Plus the modern ULTRA caps are designed for huge energy storage and fast pay out without the stress this causes other energy sources to fail prematurely. Or there really would not be a need for such things.
IMO the best solution to start with is a huge alternator. The battery is a very limited power source that was never designed for the loads that current car audio places upon them.
Then any fast recharge storage devise will aid the alternator in maintaining constant voltage to the audio equipment. Even alternators need time to respond to load changes while trying to maintain there regulated output charging voltage rate. This I feel is the place Ultra caps come into play, by buffering the loads till all the pretty much antique 12 volt auto charging system can catch up with the load demands.
now this does not mean that I condone 1.2 farad electrolytic type caps which were the first caps used for car audio. these caps value alone pretty much makes them useless except for keeping your lights from blinking at a stop light, and under large enough load even they are totally useless.
Oh that motorcycle that went 250 MPH in the quarter mile burned out its motor or it would have kept going as the ultra caps still had power left in them. it was the windings frying at high RPM's that killed the bikes endurance, not the ultra caps, as they still had enough charge to have kept the bike accelerating way past 250. These are the kinds of energy storage devices electric cars need to made marketable in today's market place.
And the old and much unimproved 12 electrical system used in cars since the model A have not really kept up with the energy demands that we currently place upon them, what with all the kilo-watt car amps out there today, and the 70 amp-hour battery's trying to power them. Its just not a pretty picture for the 12 volt scene even with class D the loads are are just astronomical nowadays. Without caps inside the amps none of this stuff would work as 12 volts just wasn't never designed to make any of this work well. In fact the car audio world has been battling the 12 volt problem for years trying to make more efficient use of the 12 volt level of power conversion. I remember a old Hifonics show van out here in Cali. even driving at 60 MPH it would shut-off the truck engine on a heavy bass hit lol lol lol A very serious power demand problem IMO....
Another thought to consider is the fact that ANY car battery will only output 12 volts, not 14.4 and that is where a ultra caps come into play as it will hold and output that 14.4 volt charge rate as its was never limited to cell output voltage limitations that the lead acid cell is limited to by design.
If 12 volts is all your looking to hold then by all means add car battery's, but if on the other hand you want 14.4 constant well then a big alternator and a bank of Ultra caps are the best way to go all day long hands down....And with all of these devices both battery's and caps alike they all have rated lifespans and once they are used up they all pretty much end up on the garbage heap, just like the cars they are made to be used in. Nothing lasts forever 🙂
1moreamp said:
because you're not paying extra for chrome, blinking lights, fancy terminal blocks and marketing. 😀
Certainly one thing that changed a lot since the 80s....well except for boosters and their power meters. Can anyone imagine the booster light show they could make today with all the new LED and displays (if people still bought them)? Of course, you could just about put a new ICE amp in a booster under-the-dash case.djQUAN said:
The kinetik batteries (agm) claim to be WAY more powerful than capacitors. They say their smallest 600 is 100x more powerful than a 1 farad cap. It supposedly can crank a v8 engine. I wonder if they have as much instantaneous current capability? Wouldn't seem possible.
I currently have a jetski/snowmobile agm battery that is only rated at 275 cranking amps I believe, and it cranks my 2.5 liter effortlessly. Maybe I could get a medium sized kinetik battery under the hood and move the smaller one to the trunk. If that didn't help sufficiently I guess I could throw another alternator in. I just don't have much faith in upgraded alternators.
I currently have a jetski/snowmobile agm battery that is only rated at 275 cranking amps I believe, and it cranks my 2.5 liter effortlessly. Maybe I could get a medium sized kinetik battery under the hood and move the smaller one to the trunk. If that didn't help sufficiently I guess I could throw another alternator in. I just don't have much faith in upgraded alternators.
I use a cut down GM 18 wheeler alternator. All that needed to be done was a rewire of the internal coils for 12 volt instead of 24 volt operation. And one new long bolt with a slightly elongated hole in the frame so it will mount on any GM product.
Oh and minimum of 2 gauge cables between the battery and the alternator, and a similar ground wire setup also. Bigger is recommended by most alternator makers.
It gives 100 amps at idle with a mild over drive pulley and it gives 250 amps HOT rated 15.0 volts constantly without issue at speeds above 1200 RPM.
Lifespan is over four years without issue. But it does depend on the source of the rework. All internal parts are standard off the shelf items so there are not too many things to go wrong. All the IRA control electronics are a single standard voltage regulator, so any local parts supplier can give me what I need to rebuild my own when need be. This includes bearing, and commutator brush's.
There really isn't much else to worry about unless you put it on a high revving engine. The higher bearing speed at idle does load the bearings faster to failure by about 11%, so a high revving four banger will cause excessive drive rotation speed to the shaft and this could be an issue on rice rockets. I run a suburban tank, so I rarely ever see anything above 3000 RPM's.
I also have a spare backup replacement so if and when its time I just drop the spare in and drive on. This gives ample time to make any needed repairs to the down unit without interruption of my normal routines.
You can buy over drive pulley's on flea-bay if you can't find a local source. For about $20.00 this will solve most idle drop out issues your stock alternator will have built into them by design. But it does spin the shaft faster to do this, and that means shorter bearing life sometimes. But the pulley can be moved from alternator to alternator with a little effort, and some mild heat to free it up and get it off the shaft.
Watch out for the little local shops making big promises. I have found most of these places to be way less then knowledgeable about what they are doing. lol just look for the big promises, your instinct will do the rest...🙂
Oh by the way, have you ever torn open a Kinetics battery and looked inside. They are not a typical battery, they are high energy storage cells like the Ultra cap, ( I believe they are classed and very fast battery's by definition) and there are a bunch of them connected together inside those big blue battery cases just like Ultra caps. I have nothing against Kinetics, but I just don't trust marketing hype from any company that sells to the car audio industry. Just too much BS out there
Oh and minimum of 2 gauge cables between the battery and the alternator, and a similar ground wire setup also. Bigger is recommended by most alternator makers.
It gives 100 amps at idle with a mild over drive pulley and it gives 250 amps HOT rated 15.0 volts constantly without issue at speeds above 1200 RPM.
Lifespan is over four years without issue. But it does depend on the source of the rework. All internal parts are standard off the shelf items so there are not too many things to go wrong. All the IRA control electronics are a single standard voltage regulator, so any local parts supplier can give me what I need to rebuild my own when need be. This includes bearing, and commutator brush's.
There really isn't much else to worry about unless you put it on a high revving engine. The higher bearing speed at idle does load the bearings faster to failure by about 11%, so a high revving four banger will cause excessive drive rotation speed to the shaft and this could be an issue on rice rockets. I run a suburban tank, so I rarely ever see anything above 3000 RPM's.
I also have a spare backup replacement so if and when its time I just drop the spare in and drive on. This gives ample time to make any needed repairs to the down unit without interruption of my normal routines.
You can buy over drive pulley's on flea-bay if you can't find a local source. For about $20.00 this will solve most idle drop out issues your stock alternator will have built into them by design. But it does spin the shaft faster to do this, and that means shorter bearing life sometimes. But the pulley can be moved from alternator to alternator with a little effort, and some mild heat to free it up and get it off the shaft.
Watch out for the little local shops making big promises. I have found most of these places to be way less then knowledgeable about what they are doing. lol just look for the big promises, your instinct will do the rest...🙂
Oh by the way, have you ever torn open a Kinetics battery and looked inside. They are not a typical battery, they are high energy storage cells like the Ultra cap, ( I believe they are classed and very fast battery's by definition) and there are a bunch of them connected together inside those big blue battery cases just like Ultra caps. I have nothing against Kinetics, but I just don't trust marketing hype from any company that sells to the car audio industry. Just too much BS out there
I was thinking of buying the smallest kinetic model because my two 1farad EFX caps (old school but still has rated capacity, I know, I measured them) can't keep up with a single 1kW class D sub amp. still have the dimming lights issue 
a friend who is an installer recommended the stinger batts. slightly cheaper but supposedly same performance. 
a friend who is an installer recommended the stinger batts. slightly cheaper but supposedly same performance. My lights dim even while driving down the road, not just when idling. And its so severe that the parking lights are also dimming along with the dash lights. Its too cold for me to mess with it now but I'm going to investigate the stock lighting wiring before I purchase anything.
I'm afraid if you don't get a larger alternator you will need something like two full size batteries plus the underhood one. If you check the voltage enough battery will keep it from falling under 12v...still some flicker but looking at the amps you have I bet it goes lower.
ppia600 said:
have you tried a grounding kit or making your own?
i made one for my nissan and the improvement was like night and day man.
i went:
1. alt bracket - engine - transmission
2. engine - right shock tower
3. transmission - left shock tower
4. left shock tower - right shock tower.
5. batt neg - closest shock tower
6. additional alt pos - batt positive
two-2150sx and one 225 hcca....the stock electrical would support this system when driving on a 65 ah battery 2 years old, 11 plates per cell...hiphop music...bassmechanic..would kill it faster.
i peg the volume like maniac for about 15 minutes at a time, then roll it back down to half volume the rest of the time.
ps......
oh yeah i almost forgot...i use to have a PPI A600 that had a problem, try this... drive down the road with the system on but no volume.
then unplug the PPIA600 and drive again and see if there is a difference do to alternator lag.
i had the A600 in a mitsubishi lancer and it would draw excess current because it was faulty.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.