I'll help you. Here is the response you got at ASR:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ibility-of-dac-phase-noise.56660/post-2068234
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ibility-of-dac-phase-noise.56660/post-2068234
I believe that's the same Sy that left here. IMHO, he is one of the most extreme over there. OTOH, they have a pretty good dac specialist guy.
Members, kindly watch this video of a bass player and then explain in a few words, what characteristics of the DAC would best apply to these audio clips regards realism, phase noise, jitter, distortion, etc. I listen to this and would not even know what the difference between any DACs are regarding the issues described.
Youtube videos use lossy compressed sound. We need better than that; at least CD quality. Also, bass is much easier than cymbals. Try a CD rip with a jazz drummer playing cymbals that are simply mic'ed with a couple of overhead condensers.
Now we look at real world not imaginary stuff. Which DAC would make this sound the most realistic and accurate. I listened on mine, yes it is YouTube but I cannot hear a difference or rather I cannot tell which DAC is better (different) than the other in any way shape or sound.
Oh so now blame YouTube, just tell me what is your opinion, are one not allowed to use a DAC on YouTube. If you need me to convert it to bit perfect WAV, FLAC or MP3 format and resample at CD 24/192 or higher if you like would you be able to tell. I think not.
This is bass, probably a single mic, I have no idea. So this should be easy to analyze with your equipment and tell without listening to it as you say.
Just play this signal at full digital volume (0 dB digital attenuation) over DACs with and without headroom for intersample overshoots. If you don't hear any difference, go see an audiologist.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/intersample-zip.1061539/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/intersample-zip.1061539/
You might try this: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/dkqk...ions.wav?rlkey=uoo8u7xqi5jc95fjtcacl4zcz&dl=0
Download, play, turn it up loud enough you can hear the beginning, then leave it at that volume setting. How does your system handle it?
How much separation between the instruments do you notice? Are they all kind of blurred together compared to being in a room with the real instruments and musicians? Do you separately hear the room reverberations for each separate instrument, or all they all blurred together?
There is a HUGE difference on those factors between my reference system and my laptop. Despite that I can still enjoy the music on the laptop, it just doesn't sound like real instruments in a real room.
Download, play, turn it up loud enough you can hear the beginning, then leave it at that volume setting. How does your system handle it?
How much separation between the instruments do you notice? Are they all kind of blurred together compared to being in a room with the real instruments and musicians? Do you separately hear the room reverberations for each separate instrument, or all they all blurred together?
There is a HUGE difference on those factors between my reference system and my laptop. Despite that I can still enjoy the music on the laptop, it just doesn't sound like real instruments in a real room.
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My DAC is always at 0dB it is a DAC not a volume control. Never the less how many bits extra does a DAC with headroom need, another DAC daisy chained. Or do I not understand your logic. In my limited knowledge digital outputs are made of ones and zeros, not one with a little headroom or maybe one and a half? So if my DAC is specified as 24 bit it should actually need 28 bits how can I tell. How much headroom is enough?
I listened to the three sound clips on my headphones, it sounds like the hearing test I did a few days ago where the audiologist said I can hear well above 16kHz. So what are we supposed to listen for besides the tones being amplitude modulated, sort of warble..
Markw4,
Dire Straits is my favorite group, I recognized it on the first note. I have all their original masters imports on three different formats, What I immediately notice is your uploaded version is much harsher or edgier than mine maybe something wrong with the data transfer or ripping process. I played Private Investigation from my CD rip on my HDD for comparison. Your upload really does not sound great. I am sorry mate.
Maybe you should try the master copy, it is incredible! I also have it on BlueRay as well as original LP (which I know will sound very different being analogue) Maybe I will one day take time to compare each with another on Audacity visually, there may be differences on every medium.
However there is definitely something wrong with what I just downloaded and I am afraid that it does not my pass my listening test at any volume. I used HD800 through the Topping connected by USB and headphone amp. You actually inspired me to take out the LP tomorrow and listen to it though my humble system in my untreated lounge that was never measured and no DSP. I am sure I will enjoy it.
Dire Straits is my favorite group, I recognized it on the first note. I have all their original masters imports on three different formats, What I immediately notice is your uploaded version is much harsher or edgier than mine maybe something wrong with the data transfer or ripping process. I played Private Investigation from my CD rip on my HDD for comparison. Your upload really does not sound great. I am sorry mate.
Maybe you should try the master copy, it is incredible! I also have it on BlueRay as well as original LP (which I know will sound very different being analogue) Maybe I will one day take time to compare each with another on Audacity visually, there may be differences on every medium.
However there is definitely something wrong with what I just downloaded and I am afraid that it does not my pass my listening test at any volume. I used HD800 through the Topping connected by USB and headphone amp. You actually inspired me to take out the LP tomorrow and listen to it though my humble system in my untreated lounge that was never measured and no DSP. I am sure I will enjoy it.
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There should be a text explaining that in the same zip file. It's in Dutch and English, if I remember well. 3 dB of headroom is usually more than enough, but most DACs are designed for 0 dB.
The problem is with a DAC that does not have a output level control, you cannot set in to -3dB maybe on the remote it is possible, but I lost mine years ago and it is in DAC mode not pre-amp mode. I would have liked to understand your three signals, and their purpose but my DAC is stuck at 0dB in DAC mode. What I could do however is to use Equalizer APO software on the PC which is at the very front end of the HP audio decoding chip through bios reduce overall gain by 3dB, that should do it and just leave it at that setting? Now explain what you think I should be hearing. I did guess right though, I heard amplitude modulation. But not sure what to conclude by it.
Exactly. This is why I muted him early in this thread. He's getting off on posting garbage.
How did you play it? Did you download the wav file and save it, or did you try to play it though dropbox? If the latter then it will lossy compress. You have to download the file first, then play it.
Regarding the format, it is 16-bit wav. That can sound better than SACD if processed through PCM2SDSD into a good DSD dac.
I have a fair amount of SACD rips. They all sound inferior to CD rips if processed through PCM2DSD into DSD256 and then into MarcelvdG's RTZ DSD dac.
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Pure BS. Over there, only DonH56 understands dacs. The other so-called technical experts, not so much. @Miller-8, close to zero.
They just don't know what to do with me. I'm talking about stuff most of them don't understand. They banned me, then un-banned me, now who knows what. Last time I looked it still says I am an active member.
What they want is for me to publish measurements and controlled listening test results. However, for Amir's unproven theory about "audibly transparent if SINAD is good enough," they don't require any scientific publications at all. Of course he is the boss over there, so they can't demand anything he doesn't want to do. People have tried that before and they always get banned. Just saying that sort of thing here may get me permanently banned. What can you do? I tried, at least, to get them to understand there is more than SINAD. I feel bad for DonH56 as he seems like a good guy, but I think he knows he has to tread carefully.
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Markw4 I down loaded it to hard drive, then played it, It sounded gritty from word go, okay I am exaggerating a bit but was of lesser quality than my copy, it sounded gritty or a little dirty or grainy like lacking dynamic range or maybe clipping at top end. Whatever format is was was selected on the PC I tried changing between 16 , 24 to 32 bit 16/ and both 44.1kHz and 48kHz was best.
I do know that SACD diverts to normal CD if there are flaws of sorts, maybe this happened for the uploaded copy. But still should be immaculate ans CD copy. If you rip it at 87% or 100% volume, that can make a big difference in playback quality as you leave no dynamic range on the rip so playback could limit the dynamic range and compress.
Anyway Mark, I am not some much into the technical jargon regarding ripping, I am just repeating what my brother said sitting next tome. They are here for the week and he is an audiophile, more so than me.
Also I am using a D50 probably not really good, so the problem could even lie there the DAC, We just started playing with the Wadia DAC which if quality is based on price costs about 40-50x that of the Topping D50. While I am writing my brother is listening with this very big warm grin with a thumbs up switching between my copies. So my fiend it is what it is. We cannot evaluate the same sound on the same product each in our different location, probably 8000 miles apart.
I do know that SACD diverts to normal CD if there are flaws of sorts, maybe this happened for the uploaded copy. But still should be immaculate ans CD copy. If you rip it at 87% or 100% volume, that can make a big difference in playback quality as you leave no dynamic range on the rip so playback could limit the dynamic range and compress.
Anyway Mark, I am not some much into the technical jargon regarding ripping, I am just repeating what my brother said sitting next tome. They are here for the week and he is an audiophile, more so than me.
Also I am using a D50 probably not really good, so the problem could even lie there the DAC, We just started playing with the Wadia DAC which if quality is based on price costs about 40-50x that of the Topping D50. While I am writing my brother is listening with this very big warm grin with a thumbs up switching between my copies. So my fiend it is what it is. We cannot evaluate the same sound on the same product each in our different location, probably 8000 miles apart.
My conclusion for the thread is I can hear a fairly substantial difference between DAC whether the measure the same or not, but I can also hear a difference between media file which I believe is not the same because they don't sound the same. Does that make sense?
My apologies for the responses earlier we had, maybe it all ends good and we both learn something new. I am essentially an electronic engineer in the analog domain with some understanding of the digital domain and measurement techniques while being a design engineer in signal analysis division of HP with my boss the late Siegfried (Rip) whom I learned a lot from and respect. 20 of us worked on modules of the HP8510 network analyzer when Siegfried led the team. I went back to HP South Africa at the product launch in Europe if I recall around 1980. Two years later I moved to Plessey Radar in Cheapside Liverpool developing shipping radars and then into ECCM in various eastern bloc countries at the edge of electronic warfare. Although being project manager on various sensitive projects, I hated admin and remained a hands on design engineer. I am sure there is a lot of jargon in our fields of experience that can cross correlate as we learn to understand one another. Well my friend it is 02:30 and bed time. It was an interesting day.
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