Hi,
Sorry to disagree, Paul.
I don't think that's the end of the story though, no matter how much we'd all like it to be.
If it was a simple LCR equation then why do I, and countless others hear clear difference between solid core and multi strand wire for instance?
Cheers,😉
Sorry to disagree, Paul.
I don't think that's the end of the story though, no matter how much we'd all like it to be.
If it was a simple LCR equation then why do I, and countless others hear clear difference between solid core and multi strand wire for instance?
Cheers,😉
That's more of a question for an EE than a materials scientist. The things that cause distortion are, within reason, unrelated to the sorts of fine-grained phenomena being tossed about (I exclude 'unreasonable' examples like corroded junctions, which are a very real source of distortion and nothing mysterious).
Not at all. In my professional life, we never hesitate to argue about technical issues without regard to personalities, stature, or reputation. And I can't claim any sort of stature or reputation in audio electronics; it's just a hobby for me. This kind of stuff just doesn't get me emotional- I save that for music, women, my little boy, and fine wine.
At audio frequencies, electrons aren't really "flowing."
Hate to be the one to tell you, BUT there are diodes in your metal wires. More than you will ever bother to measure. I have measured them.
Maybe the impurities are directional
Not an EE, or any other E, and I don't think I'll ever be able to discern an audible difference, but I've read all my Popular Science...
Since is wire drawn out by some form of extrusion and it is not unheard of for directional mechanical processes to impart a "grain" structure - plastics, sheet metal, etc. - would it not also be possible for this grain to be imparted to the wire. Now, let's say that the copper always acts the way it should - ie. perfect conductor. The mere fact that there are impurities in the material could then be the cause of this so-called directionality. Maybe the actual extrusion process where the metal is heated (either pre-heated or heated due to forming) creates a situation where the impurities have a grain and this grain is the cause of the directionality.
I point to semiconductors as my analogy. The impurities in the copper are creating a situation where some parts of the wire are more conductive than others. In a DC situation, the electrons are all flowing in one general direction and an electron that starts at one end of the wire may eventually find it's way to the other end. In an AC mode, the electrons only shuffle back and forth at the frequency of the signal. In a short cable this still means that the electrons can make it the distance = length of the cable. For particularly long cables with higher frequencies, some electrons never make it out of the wire and just oscillate back and forth from one orbit to another. Maybe in this case, the impurities are having an effect in one direction of flow versus the other.
🙂ensen.
Not an EE, or any other E, and I don't think I'll ever be able to discern an audible difference, but I've read all my Popular Science...
Since is wire drawn out by some form of extrusion and it is not unheard of for directional mechanical processes to impart a "grain" structure - plastics, sheet metal, etc. - would it not also be possible for this grain to be imparted to the wire. Now, let's say that the copper always acts the way it should - ie. perfect conductor. The mere fact that there are impurities in the material could then be the cause of this so-called directionality. Maybe the actual extrusion process where the metal is heated (either pre-heated or heated due to forming) creates a situation where the impurities have a grain and this grain is the cause of the directionality.
I point to semiconductors as my analogy. The impurities in the copper are creating a situation where some parts of the wire are more conductive than others. In a DC situation, the electrons are all flowing in one general direction and an electron that starts at one end of the wire may eventually find it's way to the other end. In an AC mode, the electrons only shuffle back and forth at the frequency of the signal. In a short cable this still means that the electrons can make it the distance = length of the cable. For particularly long cables with higher frequencies, some electrons never make it out of the wire and just oscillate back and forth from one orbit to another. Maybe in this case, the impurities are having an effect in one direction of flow versus the other.
🙂ensen.
Hi,
Believe me as as much an atheist as you are when it comes to desires to believe but the audible differences are not subtle.
Thanks to Jimmy Hughes I stick to solid core wire and I think Thorsten does as well.
It doesn't cost a penny more but it makes for a huge difference from powercord to hook-up wire.
Much less susceptible to microphony and diodic effects it should be the standard type of wire in anything audio.
Anyone even slightly interested in music reproduction should at least try it out.
Cheers,😉
Believe me as as much an atheist as you are when it comes to desires to believe but the audible differences are not subtle.
Thanks to Jimmy Hughes I stick to solid core wire and I think Thorsten does as well.
It doesn't cost a penny more but it makes for a huge difference from powercord to hook-up wire.
Much less susceptible to microphony and diodic effects it should be the standard type of wire in anything audio.
Anyone even slightly interested in music reproduction should at least try it out.
Cheers,😉
OK, then, before I waste my time trying to nail Jello to a wall, give me a test protocol that will enable me to hear the difference between stranded and solid wire.
john curl said:
You don't know exactly what you've measured, John. All you've got are some distortion products which change with different interconnects which also change variously back and forth over time. You've done nothing to determine their actual cause. In fact, you've said numerous times that you don't really know and don't really care what the cause is, you only care that you've measured something.
Does this ring any bells?
Personally, I don't care whether the distortion is generated by Peltier effects, cross-lattice distortion, impurities, or whatever. I just measure significant distortion in some wires, and almost no distortion in others.
Now you're here claiming that you have for a fact measured diodes in metal wires.
All you know is that van den Hul has made some unsupported claims about "microdiodes" in copper wire and that you've measured some distortion products.
The leaps of logic here are truly astounding.
se
Hi,
A good place to start would be to replace all the powercords with simple solid core ones for everything in the audio system...
That alone should make for a marked difference.
I am not going to suggest any outcome as it would bias you..
Personally I use a twisted pair, the same gauge (don't know the #) as is used for inside wall wiring, for Live and Neutral and a small gauge wire as a drain (Earth) wire using IEC plugs.
Cheers,😉
A good place to start would be to replace all the powercords with simple solid core ones for everything in the audio system...
That alone should make for a marked difference.
I am not going to suggest any outcome as it would bias you..
Personally I use a twisted pair, the same gauge (don't know the #) as is used for inside wall wiring, for Live and Neutral and a small gauge wire as a drain (Earth) wire using IEC plugs.
Cheers,😉
Hi,
And you think Aalt Jouk is the only one making this claim?
This didn't come out of nowhere, you know...
Wait a minute...I can't really say that since these are all people with an axe to grind, they're in business, they actually sell product...
Funny how the rules change when it's an American company making the same claims...
Shall we call it unilateral capitalism from now on or just plain jealousy?
Oh, and before you get excited, the "microdiodes" effects are visible on a scope and so is microphony in cables but this time you'll just have to do the homework yourself...
Cheers,😉
And you think Aalt Jouk is the only one making this claim?
This didn't come out of nowhere, you know...
Wait a minute...I can't really say that since these are all people with an axe to grind, they're in business, they actually sell product...
Funny how the rules change when it's an American company making the same claims...
Shall we call it unilateral capitalism from now on or just plain jealousy?
Oh, and before you get excited, the "microdiodes" effects are visible on a scope and so is microphony in cables but this time you'll just have to do the homework yourself...
Cheers,😉
fdegrove said:
Nope. It's just that van den Hul is the person John's always making reference to.
Certainly it came from somewhere. But so far it seems to only come from those involved in high-end audio and apparently this asymmetrical conductivity of copper wire has gone wholly unnoticed by physicists and material scientists.
I recall reading somewhere that some researcher many many years ago thought he'd observed asymmetrical conductivity in copper wire, but upon further investigation, it turned out to be due to the contacts, rather than the wire itself.
What rules have changed? I only mentioned van den Hul because it's van den Hul's claims that John is always making reference to when discussing his measurements.
Yeah? Could you please detail the test setup? I'd love to take a look.
se
It all depends on how you define "diode." But under any conceivable definition, a few seconds of thought about the relevant symmetries will convince you that it's mighty unlikely to have any effect on an audio signal. It doesn't seem to affect power transmission or ADSL...
Would it be sufficient to replace just the cords on my CD, my preamp, and my power amp? Or will the experiment be absolutely ruined because I didn't replace the cords on my ESL bias supplies?
Hi,
Do you honestly think that someone like Aalt Jouk Van den Hul, who'se a physicist BTW, would make such claims unfoundedly?
And get away with it without his fellow physicists doing anything to prove him wrong?
Don't think so...
I thought as much, but what did I say?
Maybe you could ask Fred to set up a rig for you?
His fees are cheap compared to mine...😀
Cheers,😉
Do you honestly think that someone like Aalt Jouk Van den Hul, who'se a physicist BTW, would make such claims unfoundedly?
And get away with it without his fellow physicists doing anything to prove him wrong?
Don't think so...
I thought as much, but what did I say?
Maybe you could ask Fred to set up a rig for you?
His fees are cheap compared to mine...😀
Cheers,😉
SY said:
Well what John says is he has measured is distortion that only appears at low levels, around 30mV, with the distortion products being around -120 dB (or -130 dB, John has claimed both at various times) below this. Much above this and the distortion disappears.
He refers to this as a "dead zone" and in spite of having previously said he doesn't know or care what their cause is, is now claiming that this distortion is in fact due to "microdiodes" in the copper wire itself.
I guess this should come as a relief. Because it means that if the distortion is in fact due to "microdiodes" as John claims, that means it's not due to dielectric effects so we don't have to worry about dielectrics anymore.
PVC here we come! 🙂
se
fdegrove said:
I've no idea what he'd do. Are you saying that just because he's a physicist his claims inherently have merit? Look how many charlatans there are out there who are doctors, physicists, etc.
Get away with what? What physics journals has he published these findings in where he would be subject to peer review by fellow physicists?
Again, the leaps of logic here are truly astounding.
se
Hi,
What astounds me most is your naive view.
It's obvious to me you have no idea what peer review actually means.
What's that about? Jumping to the wrong conclusions as usual, are we now?
The leaps of logic you make are far more astounding here and not just in this thread...
That, to me, is truly astounding and downright narrowminded on your part.
Cheers,😉
What astounds me most is your naive view.
It's obvious to me you have no idea what peer review actually means.
What's that about? Jumping to the wrong conclusions as usual, are we now?
The leaps of logic you make are far more astounding here and not just in this thread...
That, to me, is truly astounding and downright narrowminded on your part.
Cheers,😉
I'm fairly familiar with the peer-review process, having published in refereed physics journals. Steve's question is a legitimate one- if this guy (who's in the business of selling expensive wire) has made discoveries that go beyond what conventional physics is aware of, where are the publications in refereed journals?
While you're at it, could you answer my little question about power cords? Replacing them is easy and fast on everything I have except the ESL bias supplies. Will that be sufficient to test your hypothesis?
While you're at it, could you answer my little question about power cords? Replacing them is easy and fast on everything I have except the ESL bias supplies. Will that be sufficient to test your hypothesis?
Well folks, just because VDH and I have found distortion at low levels in metal wire, don't think that DA is not important. It is yet another problem with wires. We use teflon for our best caps and wire insulation. We have found that it makes an audible difference in our best designs.
SE is always misquoting me or putting words in my mouth. Also, wire distortion is located at about -110dB with single audio tone, in my work. I have a noise residual around -125dB. This is with 100X FFT noise averaging.
SE is always misquoting me or putting words in my mouth. Also, wire distortion is located at about -110dB with single audio tone, in my work. I have a noise residual around -125dB. This is with 100X FFT noise averaging.
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