There are better high-mu triodes than ECC83
In terms of linearity, no. In terms of noise, yes- D3a being one of them.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/164920-guess-tube.html
At 8.5VRMS out, -70dB second, nothing higher visible above -100dB
Hi,
Thank you.
I don't mind at all 0.1% THD, not even 1%, as long as there are no measureable higher harmonics, say above the fourth.
We saw here different view, probably based on actual measurements
One thing is that I don't care at all about small amount of 2nd harmonic distortion.
Second is that differential configuration, when the two sections are matched closely, cancel even harmonics distortion,
Indeed, it is so. I have taken all priorities into consideration. So far, I don't see why and how the circuit I have in mind doesn't meet well all requirements and priorities. All else being equal, I prefer that there will be no measureable harmonic distortion above say the fourth.
So far, I don't see how different architecture may be better for my priorities, namely low noise, low microphonics, enough gain, good immunity to RFI, flat wide-band, frequency response, ample headroom and instantaneous recovery from overloads.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I would start from the RTP3C and use the 6992. This valve can be quite linear. I don't thinK D3a, G3g etc. can do better and actually can be quite tricky. At some point, somewhere between 0.03% and 0.1% there is irreducible distortion and without feedback or other useful technique it is impossible to go lower.
I don't mind at all 0.1% THD, not even 1%, as long as there are no measureable higher harmonics, say above the fourth.
The only difference between the two group of valves above is that more likely that small residual amount will be mostly 2nd harmonic for the 6922 and mostly 3rd harmonic for the triode strapped pentodes. It's constitutional! Having more electrodes perfect "symmetry" is more difficult.
We saw here different view, probably based on actual measurements
Cancelling small amounts of 2nd harmonics with two cascaded stages is possible without compromising the other things.
One thing is that I don't care at all about small amount of 2nd harmonic distortion.
Second is that differential configuration, when the two sections are matched closely, cancel even harmonics distortion,
As others said you have other priorities in a phono amp than linear behavior with large signals.
Indeed, it is so. I have taken all priorities into consideration. So far, I don't see why and how the circuit I have in mind doesn't meet well all requirements and priorities. All else being equal, I prefer that there will be no measureable harmonic distortion above say the fourth.
So far, I don't see how different architecture may be better for my priorities, namely low noise, low microphonics, enough gain, good immunity to RFI, flat wide-band, frequency response, ample headroom and instantaneous recovery from overloads.
The Ale Moglia pages are very useful. There are quite a lot of real THD measurments and in some cases the results are quite representative having measured a good number for each type.
If you want to know precisely just send him your specific velves and get them tested!
Valve/Tube Testing Service | Bartola Valves
Thank you.
In terms of linearity, no. In terms of noise, yes- D3a being one of them.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/164920-guess-tube.html
At 8.5VRMS out, -70dB second, nothing higher visible above -100dB
Yes there are. Try the 6SF5GT or the 6SQ7GT. Same behavior down to very low output and better and better at higher level. In a simple common cathode amp you can get 20-30% more output for the same distortion for any given power supply. With higher load than ususal (using CCS) even better.
At the same time less problems with biasing on average.
Maybe my D3a's are not good then....
Why much lower 3rd harmonic distortion makes this tube not good?
Yes there are. Try the 6SF5GT or the 6SQ7GT. Same behavior down to very low output and better and better at higher level. In a simple common cathode amp you can get 20-30% more output for the same distortion for any given power supply. With higher load than ususal (using CCS) even better.
At the same time less problems with biasing on average.
I don't think that capability of higher output for given distortion figure is relevant to this case (phono stage).
Edit:
Also, how is the noise and microphonics of those tubes, compared to C3g or D3a?
I don't think that capability of higher output for given distortion figure is relevant to this case (phono stage).
Edit:
Also, how is the noise and microphonics of those tubes, compared to C3g or D3a?
Forget distiortion at very low levels. You can get low distortion without using special valves. In the end you need to look at the circuit as a whole. I don't think A. Wright wanted high distortion from his circuits. Actually all his circuits are quite well behaved in this department.
From my experience the D3a can be easily anything but low microphonic device and well selected standard hi-mu triodes specifically designed for that are usually better! Sometimes as in my case with the 6SF5GT it is even better than low noise ECC83's. It might seem strange but the full glass solution and special filaments do not guarantee the best result by default. This is also true for power devices. I still have to find a quiter power device than my 45's! Could this be something related to its "magic sound"? Maybe....
As a rule of thumb, with high gm devices there are more variations from lot to lot and device to device, more potential issues with osciallations.
I cannot help you more than this as I have found my solution for phono preamp and valves have been ruled out!😀
You can have it if you want as this is a finished product.
Last edited:
Yes there are. Try the 6SF5GT or the 6SQ7GT.
I have quite a bit of data on 6SF5. It's a very good tube, albeit with high input capacitance.
I am not a fan of interstage transformers. As a general rule I regard transformers as being much less like ideal components than capacitors. Transformers need a reasonably well-defined impedance on both sides, which cascode may not provide.Joshua_G said:I described the architecture I have in mind: one stage MM/MC, differential JFET's cascoded by triodes (or triode-strapped pentodes), loaded by inter-stage transformer, passive RIIA equalization, in one case with the preamp.
What are your comments about the above architecture?
I have quite a bit of data on 6SF5. It's a very good tube, albeit with high input capacitance.
In the end it is not a big difference in practice and you get basically a bit lower input capacitance of a triode connected D3a with higher gain.
In a phono preamp input the relevance of input capcitance can be anything. Too high or beneficial (i.e. useful) when looking for the best input impedance of the amp to match a specific cartridge.
In the end it is not a big difference in practice and you get basically a bit lower input capacitance of a triode connected D3a with higher gain.
D3a also gives you dramatically lower noise and lower plate resistance. Ditto triode-strapped C3g (at least plate resistance- I don't have noise data, but the transconductance is nice and high). The high plate resistance and low transconductance of ECC83 and 6SF5 make design quite a bit trickier, but you get the same problem with cascodes (which is why I ended up abandoning that approach).
D3a also gives you dramatically lower noise and lower plate resistance. Ditto triode-strapped C3g (at least plate resistance- I don't have noise data, but the transconductance is nice and high). The high plate resistance and low transconductance of ECC83 and 6SF5 make design quite a bit trickier, but you get the same problem with cascodes (which is why I ended up abandoning that approach).
Solid state is better for this application (i.e. phono preamp)....😀
D3a also gives you dramatically lower noise and lower plate resistance. Ditto triode-strapped C3g (at least plate resistance- I don't have noise data, but the transconductance is nice and high).
…
According to the datasheet, diode-strapped D3a has Req of 65 Ohm, while C3g has Req of 200 Ohm.
As pentodes, D3a has Req of 150 Ohm, C3g has Req of 650 Ohm and E810F has Req of 110 Ohm.
You have to take those numbers with a pillar of salt. They are generally useful at RF, but often wildly off for audio. One major issue is the corner frequency of the noise spectrum. See, for example, Vogel's article in Linear Audio vol. 4. The bottom line of his paper was that there's a lot of variance between tube types and from sample to sample of the same tube, none of which correlated well to datasheet numbers. ENR is a good starting point, but isn't even close to the final word.
There's advantages and disadvantages each way
Of course is about pros and cons.
Hello ,
you can reach very low distortion with the D3a in a RIAA circuit :
Kind regards ,
Alexander .
you can reach very low distortion with the D3a in a RIAA circuit :
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Kind regards ,
Alexander .
Hi Alexander,
Thank you.
I see harmonics above the fifth. This is no go for me.
You do understand that the circuit matters? 😀
If you look hard enough you can always get measurable components at any order. Some of them may be just noise; some of them may be FFT windowing artifacts. -100dB at a few volts out should be inconsequential for the first stage of a phone preamp. The danger of straining at gnats in electronic design is that you may end up swallowing a camel!
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
- Home
- Amplifiers
- Tubes / Valves
- C3g triode-strapped linearity question