Deleted due to contentious information. I would get in trouble, etc. Not from you guys, but from the people I work with. Sorry guys!
I will say that i have read about 1 page of information on the product and the thinking involved, so far. And I will say that when you can't answer a given question,and are puzzled by it, or can't understan a given answer, well, don't give the person with the answer a hard time, improve your learning or cognitive skills instead. The issue lies with you, not them. People's viewpoints and/or voicies in this world are generally a concious or unconcious reflection on THEMSELVES, not the rest of the world.
So if you run around calling eveything and everyone you don't understand a 'dumbass', 'charlatan' or a 'thief' ...remember..it is more of a reflection on yourself than anything else. Basic psychology 101. And then, eventually, if you don't show signs of moving toward being self-aware....maybe we'll have to treat you like Lenny.. "Just think of the rabbit...."
I will say that i have read about 1 page of information on the product and the thinking involved, so far. And I will say that when you can't answer a given question,and are puzzled by it, or can't understan a given answer, well, don't give the person with the answer a hard time, improve your learning or cognitive skills instead. The issue lies with you, not them. People's viewpoints and/or voicies in this world are generally a concious or unconcious reflection on THEMSELVES, not the rest of the world.
So if you run around calling eveything and everyone you don't understand a 'dumbass', 'charlatan' or a 'thief' ...remember..it is more of a reflection on yourself than anything else. Basic psychology 101. And then, eventually, if you don't show signs of moving toward being self-aware....maybe we'll have to treat you like Lenny.. "Just think of the rabbit...."
Either you have a good sense of humor or ...KBK said:Deleted due to contentious information. I would get in trouble, etc. Not from you guys, but from the people I work with. Sorry guys!
I will say that i have read about 1 page of information on the product and the thinking involved, so far. And I will say that when you can't answer a given question,and are puzzled by it, or can't understan a given answer, well, don't give the person with the answer a hard time, improve your learning or cognitive skills instead. The issue lies with you, not them. People's viewpoints and/or voicies in this world are generally a concious or unconcious reflection on THEMSELVES, not the rest of the world.
So if you run around calling eveything and everyone you don't understand a 'dumbass', 'charlatan' or a 'thief' ...remember..it is more of a reflection on yourself than anything else. Basic psychology 101. And then, eventually, if you don't show signs of moving toward being self-aware....maybe we'll have to treat you like Lenny.. "Just think of the rabbit...."
I call something a con because a basic substance is sold for more than a HUNDRED times its equivalent substitute. How does this statement reflect on my psyche according to the 'Basic psychology 101'?
Cya
I can't believe that people are questioning the price of a luxury item based on morality. The only time that morality should be considered when figuring the price of something is if that product is a necessity (basic food, clothing, shelter), otherwise the price should be set where the company in question can make the most profit. The price point of C37 shouldn't suprise anyone. There are powerful incentives in high end audio to charge very high prices. It's a sad fact of life, but a high price can be a selling point in and of itself. It generates a certain level of instant cachet and respectability amongst a certain class of audiophiles. And in stating this, I'm not saying that this is Mr. Ennemoser's reason for pricing C37 as high as it is. I have no idea why it's so expensive.
C37, Bybee filters, cables, feet, cones, racks and platforms all come under the umbrella of what I call "non-technical" tweaking. The market for these products is so great because they give non-technically oriented people the feeling of involvement with the "design" of their system. It allows them to do this without the same level of effort it takes to actually learn about electronics or loudspeaker design. Technically competent people often look down their noses at these kind of tweaks because they can acheive many of the same effects by making circuit design changes, but I feel that both approaches can work, although the non-technical approach is far more limited and ultimately less rewarding.
All this being said, I doubt Mr. Ennemoser would sell that much more C37 if the price were 1/2 or even 1/4 of what it is now. Look at all the free press the high price generates, much like the way the price of an Audio Note Ongaku or a pair of Nordost's Valhalla cables does. Audio Note and Nordost have products in the affordable range, but people aren't discussing those products ad nauseum on chat boards. This free press is valuable for a small company. If C37 were priced at 1/10th of what it is now, would most of you buy it? Probably not. Would most of you be talking about it? Almost surely not.
My personal feeling about C37 is the same as the Bybee products. I don't doubt they have some effect, but I'm not willing to shell out the bucks to try them. If some generous soul were to send me some, would I give 'em a go? Of course. And if the change was enough to warrant buying more, I would. But once you've shelled out your own hard earned cash, the motivation for hearing a positive difference is strong. But I've tried some tweaks that suprised the heck out of me that shouldn't have made a difference at all according to conventional wisdom.
The ultimate question then becomes does the C37 approach have merit? I say yes IF the product does what it says it does. I've read the Positive Feedback article on Dieter Ennemoser and looked at the numerous information resources online. In a nutshell, C37 is supposed to make audio components resonate at a frequency pleasing to the ear. Some may call that a coloration, but I don't care. I've come to realize that if I do something to my system and it makes me want to listen to more records, it's good. If a change to my system makes me want to listen to less of my record collection, then it's bad. The same test would apply to C37 or any other tweak, component change, etc.
Personally, I'd like to know what's in C37 just out of curiosity. But I doubt I'd try to make my own version and start gooping up my components with it. But you never know...
C37, Bybee filters, cables, feet, cones, racks and platforms all come under the umbrella of what I call "non-technical" tweaking. The market for these products is so great because they give non-technically oriented people the feeling of involvement with the "design" of their system. It allows them to do this without the same level of effort it takes to actually learn about electronics or loudspeaker design. Technically competent people often look down their noses at these kind of tweaks because they can acheive many of the same effects by making circuit design changes, but I feel that both approaches can work, although the non-technical approach is far more limited and ultimately less rewarding.
All this being said, I doubt Mr. Ennemoser would sell that much more C37 if the price were 1/2 or even 1/4 of what it is now. Look at all the free press the high price generates, much like the way the price of an Audio Note Ongaku or a pair of Nordost's Valhalla cables does. Audio Note and Nordost have products in the affordable range, but people aren't discussing those products ad nauseum on chat boards. This free press is valuable for a small company. If C37 were priced at 1/10th of what it is now, would most of you buy it? Probably not. Would most of you be talking about it? Almost surely not.
My personal feeling about C37 is the same as the Bybee products. I don't doubt they have some effect, but I'm not willing to shell out the bucks to try them. If some generous soul were to send me some, would I give 'em a go? Of course. And if the change was enough to warrant buying more, I would. But once you've shelled out your own hard earned cash, the motivation for hearing a positive difference is strong. But I've tried some tweaks that suprised the heck out of me that shouldn't have made a difference at all according to conventional wisdom.
The ultimate question then becomes does the C37 approach have merit? I say yes IF the product does what it says it does. I've read the Positive Feedback article on Dieter Ennemoser and looked at the numerous information resources online. In a nutshell, C37 is supposed to make audio components resonate at a frequency pleasing to the ear. Some may call that a coloration, but I don't care. I've come to realize that if I do something to my system and it makes me want to listen to more records, it's good. If a change to my system makes me want to listen to less of my record collection, then it's bad. The same test would apply to C37 or any other tweak, component change, etc.
Personally, I'd like to know what's in C37 just out of curiosity. But I doubt I'd try to make my own version and start gooping up my components with it. But you never know...
Some good points made. I've been as critical of C37 as anyone, but the fact is a cone doping treatment will have a dramatic and often positive effect on sonics, unlike some of the other "luxury non technical" products. I think it's reasonable for Mr. Ennemoser to charge what the market will bear.
Being an instrument maker myself (hobbyist), I have a certain amount of pride in my knowledge of the subtle sonics of various coatings, and will continue to do my own experimenting with assorted substances and techniques. IOW, I have my own secret sauce. For someone who doesn't wish to waste time experimenting, I suppose even at the high price C37 is a reasonable choice.
So.... do we actually know what C37 is yet? An earlier post indicated polyester resin based varnish. That would not have been my first guess...
What happened to the analysis that Sy was going to do?
GB
Being an instrument maker myself (hobbyist), I have a certain amount of pride in my knowledge of the subtle sonics of various coatings, and will continue to do my own experimenting with assorted substances and techniques. IOW, I have my own secret sauce. For someone who doesn't wish to waste time experimenting, I suppose even at the high price C37 is a reasonable choice.
So.... do we actually know what C37 is yet? An earlier post indicated polyester resin based varnish. That would not have been my first guess...
What happened to the analysis that Sy was going to do?
GB
Hi,
Actually if you understand German it's not too hard to guess what's in C37.
It would require a lab however to find out the exact proportions of the ingredients.
As you mentioned cone doping materials....
There's quite a great variety of those around and they all work by evening out some resonant peaks, it may be interesting to see if there are products around similar enough to be compared directly to C37.
To my mind there's absolutly no justification whatsoever to shell out green ones for a damping compound you can very well make yourself.
Once you know the resonant behaviour of the component you want to treat, a cone or something else, it's no big deal to treat it so it can lose it's energy in the compound.
The C37 trick IMO sits with a resonance shift toward a frequency band that's less offensive to the ear, not to do away with the resonance entirely.
Overdamping often makes for a dull, lifeless sound.
Finding the right balance is what this C37 is all about....
Anyone having treated a few woofers with damping compound can tell you that anyway.........
Cheers,
Actually if you understand German it's not too hard to guess what's in C37.
It would require a lab however to find out the exact proportions of the ingredients.
As you mentioned cone doping materials....
There's quite a great variety of those around and they all work by evening out some resonant peaks, it may be interesting to see if there are products around similar enough to be compared directly to C37.
To my mind there's absolutly no justification whatsoever to shell out green ones for a damping compound you can very well make yourself.
Once you know the resonant behaviour of the component you want to treat, a cone or something else, it's no big deal to treat it so it can lose it's energy in the compound.
The C37 trick IMO sits with a resonance shift toward a frequency band that's less offensive to the ear, not to do away with the resonance entirely.
Overdamping often makes for a dull, lifeless sound.
Finding the right balance is what this C37 is all about....
Anyone having treated a few woofers with damping compound can tell you that anyway.........
Cheers,
I'll still maintain that "C37 Theory" is a huge load of BS. 
SY,
I'm tempted to buy the minimum amount so I can send you some for analysis. Do you think it's something we could reasonably copy? If so, I'd be really interested in doing it with the primary purpose to put the guy out of business by undercutting the absurd price.
I guess some here think it would be fine for OPEC to decide to charge $200 per barrel of oil. It sounds like doctors, lawyers, and car salesmen, "screw the people, make 'em pay whatever you can". Take your most recent legal bill, multiply it by 10. Then have him tell you how he saved you from 5 years in jail for that parking ticket, and you've got a legal bill that was coated with C37.
I'm tempted to buy the minimum amount so I can send you some for analysis. Do you think it's something we could reasonably copy? If so, I'd be really interested in doing it with the primary purpose to put the guy out of business by undercutting the absurd price.
I guess some here think it would be fine for OPEC to decide to charge $200 per barrel of oil. It sounds like doctors, lawyers, and car salesmen, "screw the people, make 'em pay whatever you can". Take your most recent legal bill, multiply it by 10. Then have him tell you how he saved you from 5 years in jail for that parking ticket, and you've got a legal bill that was coated with C37.
It's unlikely to be anything exotic. You could copy it (and nothing stopping anyone from analyzing and posting the results, nor copying it), but why bother? Why not just formulate something application-specific? The idea that there's *one* magic treatment good for all speaker cones and all driver problems is dubious.
No, not well spoken.
Lawyers, pharmacuetical companies and the medical establishment charge what they can, and employ impressive lobbying organizations to make sure it stays that way. I understand if you don't like it, but I at least hope that you've done something to try to change it.
I'm one of those people that thinks that OPEC should charge whatever the market will bear. I guess I'm in the minority in my country that now seems to think that cheap oil is a right guaranteed by the US constitution. If OPEC decided to raise the price of oil like that, then we'd find an alternative place from which to get our oil or we'd find a solution to the problem. I personally would love it if we stopped buying oil from dictators and used home grown Biodiesel for our trucks and alcohol for our cars, but I digress.
Holy cow, what did this guy ever do to you? I mean hey, go for it, do the analysis and try to come up with a copy. But in the end, why the vitriol? I think the reason is that some people secretly believe that this guy is onto something and are mad because he didn't share it with them FOR FREE. Imagine that, someone trying to start a business and turn a profit. Why don't you get some varnish, lacquer or whatever and get to work? I mean, don't just copy someone else's efforts, come up with something BETTER. And after spending hours and hours researching, if you do actually find something, GIVE it away.
So it comes down to deciding if the owner of the C37 company is a dedicated pioneer, working hour after hour struggling to get just the right formula for discriminating audio connossieurs.
Or is he some guy laughing his butt off every time he gets a check in the mail or an online order for a small amount of varnish with some extra stuff he dumped in one Saturday afternoon when he decided to see how dumb some people can be.
The suspense grows.
Or is he some guy laughing his butt off every time he gets a check in the mail or an online order for a small amount of varnish with some extra stuff he dumped in one Saturday afternoon when he decided to see how dumb some people can be.
The suspense grows.
Yup. But what really amuses me is when people will spend large amounts on these sorts of ancilliary 'tweaks' when the same amount of money could have been used on a more effective improvement; eg really expensive phono (TT) cables versus a Vibraplane to put the TT on.BHD said:
I'll throw in a couple of $.Hans L said:What kind of money are we talking about? I don't mind sending over a few dollars via paypal for a good laugh about the secret ingredients in C37.
Eek! Boy did I step in it. I forgot how expensive this stuff is. $201 for 50ml . As soon as I have some throw away cash I'll bite the bullet. SY, I hope the stuff actually does some good and you can whip up a gallon cheaply. When I get it, I'll let you know and get your address to send it over for analysis.
What do you think we're trying to do here?...BHD said:
Personally, I'd like the world to start of with a groupe hug every monday morning at 09.00am but that's not going to happen either. I think you're 'deeper understanding of the situation' is more like dreaming.
Dreaming again.
Sure you can't try asking for a tester or such? And are interested in a groupbuy idea?johninCR said:
Do not underestimate the value of branding. It's not difficult to make, for example, a perfume that smells exactly like Chanel. There's a local company that does just that- they deformulate perfumes, then make exact copies. And you can buy the copies for 10% of the cost of the Brand Name. But Chanel still seems to be in business, and if I gave my wife a bottle of the knock-off for her birthday, she'd throw it at my head.
In this case, you have a guy throwing out an attractive line of BS who has done a great job of creating a buzz. I can deformulate it, anyone can make an exact copy, but the gulls will claim that the copy is "missing something", it's "nearly as good but not the same" or whatever rationalization is necessary. So don't expect that C37 will disappear or even have its sales noticeably affected just because one can whip up an indistinguishable goop.
My offer still stands, but my advice is to concentrate on application-specific materials. The idea of a universal goop is downright silly.