LINK
Sorry, the link is in German, but C37 is
"Zum C37 hier für alle, die das verstehen:
Es handelt sich um ein vernetzbares, kurzöliges ungesättigtes Alkyd-Harz, das über einen Beschleuniger ( z.B. Kobaldoktalat )schon an der Luft bei oder nach der Trocknung aushärtet. Als Lösemittel wird ein spezielles Terpentin verwendet, man kann aber auch Dipenten pur verwenden. Über die Zugabe von Peroxiden kann man den Härtegrad steuern. Im Fall des C37 ist die Härte auf "mittlere" Werte eingestellt, so dass sich eine hohe Dämpfung ergibt.
ABER: letztlich ist das ein einfacher Polyesterharz, auch kurz "Klarlack" genannt!"
einfacher Polyesterharz = Klarlack
Sorry, the link is in German, but C37 is
"Zum C37 hier für alle, die das verstehen:
Es handelt sich um ein vernetzbares, kurzöliges ungesättigtes Alkyd-Harz, das über einen Beschleuniger ( z.B. Kobaldoktalat )schon an der Luft bei oder nach der Trocknung aushärtet. Als Lösemittel wird ein spezielles Terpentin verwendet, man kann aber auch Dipenten pur verwenden. Über die Zugabe von Peroxiden kann man den Härtegrad steuern. Im Fall des C37 ist die Härte auf "mittlere" Werte eingestellt, so dass sich eine hohe Dämpfung ergibt.
ABER: letztlich ist das ein einfacher Polyesterharz, auch kurz "Klarlack" genannt!"
einfacher Polyesterharz = Klarlack
Konnichiwa,
Hmmm. Given that C37 is not "clear" (not by a long shot) I find the analysis potentially flawed, insofar that what was analysed was not "pukka" C37. I have the results of a seperate analysis and it suggests a different basis and certain modification of the base laquer. Even that analysis was suggested by Mr. Ennemoser was of a product that was not correct. So the question will have to remain.
More importantly, the exact mixture to get the right hardness (in C37 speak temperature) is quite important, so you may be able to make a more or less "knock off" of C37 if you knew the base formulation but the base formulation alone will not sound at all like C37.
So I am still buying my C37 from Mr. Ennemoser and will continue to do so. Everyone themselves is of course free to do as they please.
Nothing is such.
In my modifications which are now going quite commercial I combine a wide range of things, reaching from basic electronics over esotheric electronics (eg rectifier changes and certain capacitor bypass combos and certain parts substitutions) to fundamental circuit changes and mechanical/electromechinal modifications related to Pierre Johannet's MDI and Mr. Ennemosers C37 principles. Note I am not fully accepting either set of theories presented as true, however I do accept the empirical results posited by both and have been able to get reliably the same results, hence operational I use this "magic" despite an unsatisfactory explanation as to the why it works.
Combining a wide range of modifications and tweaks is in my view the actual best methode, combined with a willingness to experiment oneself.
Sayonara
funny1968 said:
HBarske said:
Hmmm. Given that C37 is not "clear" (not by a long shot) I find the analysis potentially flawed, insofar that what was analysed was not "pukka" C37. I have the results of a seperate analysis and it suggests a different basis and certain modification of the base laquer. Even that analysis was suggested by Mr. Ennemoser was of a product that was not correct. So the question will have to remain.
More importantly, the exact mixture to get the right hardness (in C37 speak temperature) is quite important, so you may be able to make a more or less "knock off" of C37 if you knew the base formulation but the base formulation alone will not sound at all like C37.
So I am still buying my C37 from Mr. Ennemoser and will continue to do so. Everyone themselves is of course free to do as they please.
RussianBlue said:Hmm, too bad, I thought we had found the "holy grail" !
Nothing is such.
In my modifications which are now going quite commercial I combine a wide range of things, reaching from basic electronics over esotheric electronics (eg rectifier changes and certain capacitor bypass combos and certain parts substitutions) to fundamental circuit changes and mechanical/electromechinal modifications related to Pierre Johannet's MDI and Mr. Ennemosers C37 principles. Note I am not fully accepting either set of theories presented as true, however I do accept the empirical results posited by both and have been able to get reliably the same results, hence operational I use this "magic" despite an unsatisfactory explanation as to the why it works.
Combining a wide range of modifications and tweaks is in my view the actual best methode, combined with a willingness to experiment oneself.
Sayonara
C 37
KYW, so what you are saying:
"if it works, why not!" and I would agree with you.
Finding the "right" combination of ingredients for the substance used as violin varnish has been a quest for over 400 years, similar to finding the "right" way to tune keyboard instruments. There are an infinite amount of combinations, especially since the varnish AND the wood changes over time and use. Interestingly, according to scientific research part of the challenge that violin makers face is KEEPING the varnish from entering the pores of the wood which would dampen its natural resonating properties. In this sense the application of varnish is quite different from "painting". Since a speaker cone is somewhat of a "primitive" version of a resonating instrument body I find the application of these techniques to "new" technologies interesting, but I find the attempt from this experiment to construct a "universal theory" of resonance relating to the human body a bit, err, suspect. I have ordered some violin varnish from a luthier ($ 8/ 2ounces) and we will see if it "improves" the situation. Thanks for the tip!
KYW, so what you are saying:
"if it works, why not!" and I would agree with you.
Finding the "right" combination of ingredients for the substance used as violin varnish has been a quest for over 400 years, similar to finding the "right" way to tune keyboard instruments. There are an infinite amount of combinations, especially since the varnish AND the wood changes over time and use. Interestingly, according to scientific research part of the challenge that violin makers face is KEEPING the varnish from entering the pores of the wood which would dampen its natural resonating properties. In this sense the application of varnish is quite different from "painting". Since a speaker cone is somewhat of a "primitive" version of a resonating instrument body I find the application of these techniques to "new" technologies interesting, but I find the attempt from this experiment to construct a "universal theory" of resonance relating to the human body a bit, err, suspect. I have ordered some violin varnish from a luthier ($ 8/ 2ounces) and we will see if it "improves" the situation. Thanks for the tip!
Below The Belt?
Hi,
In the case of C37 or any other surface damping material it's all a matter of knowing the peak(s) that need flattening out.
By doing so you'll need to be careful not altering the moving mass too much or you're bound to lose some efficiency of that good ole piston.
Anything else is mysticism for income sake....
Thank you very much....what a relief.
Cheers,
Hi,
In the case of C37 or any other surface damping material it's all a matter of knowing the peak(s) that need flattening out.
By doing so you'll need to be careful not altering the moving mass too much or you're bound to lose some efficiency of that good ole piston.
Anything else is mysticism for income sake....
Thank you very much....what a relief.
Cheers,
Re: Below The Belt?
Konnichiwa,
Yes, you should apply C37 on cones with great care and more than an eye to thin layers.
However, I also use C37 in electronc modifications (especially for the Shanling CD & SACD Players to be precise) and the effect is neither subtle nor mystical.
Is that your considered opinion after actually experimenting with C37 or is this merely based on the Armchair scientists approach of "it shouldn't work so it can't work"?
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
fdegrove said:
Yes, you should apply C37 on cones with great care and more than an eye to thin layers.
However, I also use C37 in electronc modifications (especially for the Shanling CD & SACD Players to be precise) and the effect is neither subtle nor mystical.
fdegrove said:
Is that your considered opinion after actually experimenting with C37 or is this merely based on the Armchair scientists approach of "it shouldn't work so it can't work"?
Sayonara
MAGIC MYSTERY TOUR...
Hi,
Where does it say that "it" doesn't work?
Of course damping DOES work, it just does NOT necessarily have to be C37 for all I know.
As with any damping material C37 will have a spectrum all of its own.
If that suits your system then fine...
All I'm saying is that similar product will work in a similar way and as with anything else out there, if you know what you're doing you probably will have some excellent results....Overdo it and it's just money down the drain.
This " I don't know what it does but it seems to work" is just fuelling the "guru-like" attitude on something that can:
- analyzed in a lab.
- has been known to work for centuries as it a simple case of applied physics.
Cheers,
Hi,
Where does it say that "it" doesn't work?
Of course damping DOES work, it just does NOT necessarily have to be C37 for all I know.
As with any damping material C37 will have a spectrum all of its own.
If that suits your system then fine...
All I'm saying is that similar product will work in a similar way and as with anything else out there, if you know what you're doing you probably will have some excellent results....Overdo it and it's just money down the drain.
This " I don't know what it does but it seems to work" is just fuelling the "guru-like" attitude on something that can:
- analyzed in a lab.
- has been known to work for centuries as it a simple case of applied physics.
Cheers,
I have gotten the impression C37 is supposed to include something derived from bones or bony tissue.
I don't much doubt that C37 has some positive sonic benefits - however, I think it would be generally advantageous if someone were to quantify some of its effects in certain specific instances and it would seem that measuring its effects on some cone driver would be a good place to start. Also, it is unclear to me as to whether C37 acts more by dampening or stiffening. I suppose it depends on the particular application.
I don't much doubt that C37 has some positive sonic benefits - however, I think it would be generally advantageous if someone were to quantify some of its effects in certain specific instances and it would seem that measuring its effects on some cone driver would be a good place to start. Also, it is unclear to me as to whether C37 acts more by dampening or stiffening. I suppose it depends on the particular application.
Konnichiwa,
I don't think so. This is a rather erroneous view, probably due to the title of a Sound Practices article about Mr. Ennemoser......
What makes you assume that this has not already been done (it has - nearly 8 Years ago), published and failed completely to make the discussion more topical and usefull.
Fostex FE 127 without C37 / with C37
Source: Klang&Ton 3/96
I don't think so and I'm happy to suggest that the effect is indeed down to stiffening in certain flex modes (in cones anyway), rather than by "rubber" type damping. However, to combine two stiff layers with distinctly different natural resonances can damp BOTH of the original resonances strongly and give rise to a further one, at a differing frequency and usually very in Q but low in amplitude (compared to both original pieces). I may be wrong of course....
Sayonara
thoriated said:
I don't think so. This is a rather erroneous view, probably due to the title of a Sound Practices article about Mr. Ennemoser......
thoriated said:
What makes you assume that this has not already been done (it has - nearly 8 Years ago), published and failed completely to make the discussion more topical and usefull.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Fostex FE 127 without C37 / with C37
Source: Klang&Ton 3/96
thoriated said:
I don't think so and I'm happy to suggest that the effect is indeed down to stiffening in certain flex modes (in cones anyway), rather than by "rubber" type damping. However, to combine two stiff layers with distinctly different natural resonances can damp BOTH of the original resonances strongly and give rise to a further one, at a differing frequency and usually very in Q but low in amplitude (compared to both original pieces). I may be wrong of course....
Sayonara
Re: Re: Below The Belt?
No doubt coatings can work. But $155 Euros for 50ml....
I'll stick to ModgePodge.
Now I see you quote the above, and Ennemoser's "Even painting PCB's and components of CD-players and amplifiers gives good results." And the mention of an amp designer coating his wires in it as well.
This I'm very skeptical of, and would like to see analysis of.
With quotes like: "Another important and successively growing application of C37 is the C37 Lack (lacquer). It is composed to have the acoustic features of our body, therefore the brain cancels out the lacquers' acoustic properties."
I wouldn't be surprised if it contains some sort of DNA - likely from a Bull.
No doubt coatings can work. But $155 Euros for 50ml....
I'll stick to ModgePodge.Kuei Yang Wang said:
Now I see you quote the above, and Ennemoser's "Even painting PCB's and components of CD-players and amplifiers gives good results." And the mention of an amp designer coating his wires in it as well.
This I'm very skeptical of, and would like to see analysis of.
thoriated said:
With quotes like: "Another important and successively growing application of C37 is the C37 Lack (lacquer). It is composed to have the acoustic features of our body, therefore the brain cancels out the lacquers' acoustic properties."
I wouldn't be surprised if it contains some sort of DNA - likely from a Bull.
Hi,
Geezzzz....Is this what came out of the translation engine?
No wonder there's so much confusion about this stuff.
What they mean is that the acoustic properties of the applied C37 are close to what our hearing considers as being unobtrusive, pleasing even.
How they managed to pour that quality in a mixture that's going to be applied on items with rather varying acoustic properties, I haven't got the foggiest but, hey....It sure makes for a nice sales pitch, doesn't it?
Looks as if someone's in need of degassing...
All that with all those nice corks within reach... tsssskkkkkk.
Cheers,
Geezzzz....Is this what came out of the translation engine?
No wonder there's so much confusion about this stuff.
What they mean is that the acoustic properties of the applied C37 are close to what our hearing considers as being unobtrusive, pleasing even.
How they managed to pour that quality in a mixture that's going to be applied on items with rather varying acoustic properties, I haven't got the foggiest but, hey....It sure makes for a nice sales pitch, doesn't it?
Looks as if someone's in need of degassing...
All that with all those nice corks within reach... tsssskkkkkk.
Cheers,
fdegrove said:
No - It is straight from the site: http://www.ennemoser.com/tntinterview.html
Also this:
Test Report from Thorsten Loesch, London (Excerpt) http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0602/freakazoid.htm - scroll down.
"While C37 lacquering does change the tonality to one that is generally more dynamic, warmer and more pleasant, the biggest change is on an almost subliminal level. The C37 lacquered gear sounds more open and detailed as before, but most important – it sounds more listenable and more capable of communicating the emotion in the music."
"Subliminal"?
"Almost subliminal" My head hurts....
Hi,
Hmmm...No idea in what language the interview was done but seeing that Lucio Cadeddu is ( I think) Italian and Dieter Ennemoser Austrian I think it's been translated to English afterwards...It sure does read like it anyway.
Having designed a fair number of turntables and tonearms, that actually describes very well what you'd get when you have spurious resonances out of the way without overdamping.
Resonances can seem obnoxious to the human ear just like odd order harmonic distortion would when coming from an amplifier.
At least, I see (or rather hear) a parallel here.
Stop it...You crack me up.
From Webster:
Main Entry: sub·lim·i·nal
Pronunciation: (")s&-'bli-m&-n&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: sub- + Latin limin-, limen threshold
1 : inadequate to produce a sensation or a perception
2 : existing or functioning below the threshold of consciousness <the subliminal mind> <subliminal advertising>
- sub·lim·i·nal·ly adverb
Unfortunately the asking price is all but subliminal.
Cheers,
Hmmm...No idea in what language the interview was done but seeing that Lucio Cadeddu is ( I think) Italian and Dieter Ennemoser Austrian I think it's been translated to English afterwards...It sure does read like it anyway.
Having designed a fair number of turntables and tonearms, that actually describes very well what you'd get when you have spurious resonances out of the way without overdamping.
Resonances can seem obnoxious to the human ear just like odd order harmonic distortion would when coming from an amplifier.
At least, I see (or rather hear) a parallel here.
Stop it...You crack me up.
From Webster:
Main Entry: sub·lim·i·nal
Pronunciation: (")s&-'bli-m&-n&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: sub- + Latin limin-, limen threshold
1 : inadequate to produce a sensation or a perception
2 : existing or functioning below the threshold of consciousness <the subliminal mind> <subliminal advertising>
- sub·lim·i·nal·ly adverb
Unfortunately the asking price is all but subliminal.
Cheers,