Credit is given for innovation. If the innovation is hidden, how can we give credit? So tell us how it works, and if I consider it to be a clever idea then I will give credit. Subtracting noise is not a new idea, so unless it does it in a new and clever way there is nothing to give credit for.
There is the separate issue of whether the device does anything useful for an amp which already has good PSRR.
There is the separate issue of whether the device does anything useful for an amp which already has good PSRR.
Hi John, the reviews are positive, and you are and others are confirming the claimed noise reduction.
Given that most dual supply pre and power stages offer quite decent power supply rejection, how profound is the improvement in listening tests ?.
Eric.
Given that most dual supply pre and power stages offer quite decent power supply rejection, how profound is the improvement in listening tests ?.
Eric.
DF96, and DEBIT is for ignorance? Do you REALLY expect them to tell you EVERYTHING in the patent, with the 'wolves' watching and hoping to take credit for it, themselves, down the line? You put in 'just enough' to get the patent, and be able to defend it, if necessary.
Novelty or not, it seems like a real device deserving of a real datasheet. It might even be worth $10-$15/piece just for the convenience of it.
I don't expect them to do anything. You were complaining that we don't give credit. I explained why.
Would you expect me to say "Gosh, what a clever idea! How innovative. By the way, what exactly is the idea?"
Would you expect me to say "Gosh, what a clever idea! How innovative. By the way, what exactly is the idea?"
Hi John,
There isn't anything wrong with people asking questions.
I have a reasonable idea of how this thing works for one. For two, a simple circuit is an elegant thing that doesn't show the work and optimizations to make it so. It's the complicated circuits where you often find crudeness and failure to optimize. So hinting that a design is "reasonably sophisticated" really isn't saying much beyond the fact that hopefully it's been modified into it's simplest form. After all, there is a link I posted where the performance of a single transistor model is in the same ballpark as quoted for these. Did you have a look at that John? It's a great concept that could save you a lot of money if you aren't already doing something like that. There wouldn't be a need to buy special devices from Mr. Bybee in that case.
A design engineer wants to see how the thing interacts in his system. That's why you often see details of op amp input circuits coupled with a samples program. Before anyone goes on about "track record", or trust in an engineer, remember that well trusted, large companies with design staff (more than two engineers) divulge information and release samples. Just last year I had to sign an NDA for a chip I was working with, but I was able to get through the process and continue with the work. Had to buy a nifty bench toy as well. It ended up being an HP 4195A. Do you have access to one of these beauties John? You'd love it! Impedance test kit on the way too (41951A) 🙂 .
I don't see any reason to put any members down with the "It is not worth it to most engineers" comment John. This doesn't move anything ahead or make any friends. Just a negative statement, a "put down" that is unnecessary.
-Chris
There isn't anything wrong with people asking questions.
I have a reasonable idea of how this thing works for one. For two, a simple circuit is an elegant thing that doesn't show the work and optimizations to make it so. It's the complicated circuits where you often find crudeness and failure to optimize. So hinting that a design is "reasonably sophisticated" really isn't saying much beyond the fact that hopefully it's been modified into it's simplest form. After all, there is a link I posted where the performance of a single transistor model is in the same ballpark as quoted for these. Did you have a look at that John? It's a great concept that could save you a lot of money if you aren't already doing something like that. There wouldn't be a need to buy special devices from Mr. Bybee in that case.
Not always.
A design engineer wants to see how the thing interacts in his system. That's why you often see details of op amp input circuits coupled with a samples program. Before anyone goes on about "track record", or trust in an engineer, remember that well trusted, large companies with design staff (more than two engineers) divulge information and release samples. Just last year I had to sign an NDA for a chip I was working with, but I was able to get through the process and continue with the work. Had to buy a nifty bench toy as well. It ended up being an HP 4195A. Do you have access to one of these beauties John? You'd love it! Impedance test kit on the way too (41951A) 🙂 .
I don't see any reason to put any members down with the "It is not worth it to most engineers" comment John. This doesn't move anything ahead or make any friends. Just a negative statement, a "put down" that is unnecessary.
-Chris
The Bybee Music Rails are what they are. They are a cordwood like construction of parts in a convenient package. There were only 3 individuals, working part-time involved in the design, layout and data sheets. I found enough 'data sheet to make it work. You could too, if you wanted to. The circuit details are not available, even to me, and I know the designer(s).
😱 You must know different engineers than I do 😀
I might not say "more" - however I agree. they are adequate. 😉
This is the truth of it. I think the key here is to take the device itself at face value. Forget about whatever you may think of Bybee. And ignore the FUD in much of the marketing...
They're just another shortcut to lower supply noise. Though the marketing may imply he's invented something truly groundbreaking, in reality I suspect it is much more down to earth. He's got a reasonably good little circuit that he'd like to sell to anyone who needs such a way to easily reduce noise.
Those who are willing to put in the effort can likely do as well without his circuit. Isn't this a similar market to other such things in the DIY "modding" market? Not as interesting for the design DIY crowd.
I wouldn't mind trying some but I think they're a bit overpriced...
c'est la vie... 🙂
Hi John,
I knew how they had to work before even looking at the data sheet, white paper and tech notes. BTW, that's just a collection of similar information in repackaged form. If there had been no "ground" connection, they would be a fraud. There are two, perfectly logical.
The mod guys have been on this idea for a few years now. If you look a the FM tuner sites, someone else has an implementation of this on a board they sell. They are installing them in ... tuners. Your friend Dick would be wise to at least feed his local oscillator through a circuit like these.
One thing is for sure though. This circuit will run rings around a "capacitance multiplier", which certainly have their shortcomings. ie, they do not work very well.
So, in closing John. These will work well as advertised unless the design is messed up in some way. They are going to be effective, especially in circuits where a resistor is used instead of a current source for tail current or device load. (tube or xistor). However, it's easy enough to build your own.
-Chris
I knew how they had to work before even looking at the data sheet, white paper and tech notes. BTW, that's just a collection of similar information in repackaged form. If there had been no "ground" connection, they would be a fraud. There are two, perfectly logical.
So after looking at the material on Mr. Bybee's site, I find myself no further ahead - or behind. For anyone with a reasonable understanding of electronics, these things are no mystery at all. They will work, it's been done before, same old high end thing. Overpriced packages with a good story. That's fine for people who need a pre-built "kit" they can install. John, with your experience, you have zero need of these devices, and you could sit down and draw a workable schematic right now.
The mod guys have been on this idea for a few years now. If you look a the FM tuner sites, someone else has an implementation of this on a board they sell. They are installing them in ... tuners. Your friend Dick would be wise to at least feed his local oscillator through a circuit like these.
One thing is for sure though. This circuit will run rings around a "capacitance multiplier", which certainly have their shortcomings. ie, they do not work very well.
So, in closing John. These will work well as advertised unless the design is messed up in some way. They are going to be effective, especially in circuits where a resistor is used instead of a current source for tail current or device load. (tube or xistor). However, it's easy enough to build your own.
-Chris
Actually I have to disagree. To build any active device that feeds an unknown load particularly where capacitors are concerned that is going to push to the limits and stay stable is not that easy.
Just designing a circuit is the first part, getting it to always work with the performance range of parts in production is the next issue, and then there is always someone who will find a way to mis-apply it.
Then there is always the issue of what exactly is better? In op-amps most folks look for low distortion, but some low distortion parts have real problems with EMI and so do not work well in production. They might be really great for DIY, but not much else.
Well, Ed Simon, we experienced design engineers just can't argue with moderators.
However, I am recommending to these to my associates. They are not cap multipliers, they are closer to feedback activated differential comparators, using power supply rejection as an adjunct to differentially canceling what is not wanted in the input signal, yet they have about the same voltage 'drop' as a cap multiplier.
As I said before, they are a refined, relatively versatile, noise reducer, IF you don't want or need it, then ignore it.
However, I am recommending to these to my associates. They are not cap multipliers, they are closer to feedback activated differential comparators, using power supply rejection as an adjunct to differentially canceling what is not wanted in the input signal, yet they have about the same voltage 'drop' as a cap multiplier.
As I said before, they are a refined, relatively versatile, noise reducer, IF you don't want or need it, then ignore it.
Hi Simon,
Okay, not everyone can design one. I didn't suggest that the circuit was that simple. However, once you think about it, I am really sure you could do it.
I'm nothing special as far as knowledge and abilities go. If I have used this concept successfully, many others have as well.
Cheers, Chris
Okay, not everyone can design one. I didn't suggest that the circuit was that simple. However, once you think about it, I am really sure you could do it.
There are limitations, and those are indicated. The range of applications is limited to a current and voltage range also. However, look at your argument and explain to me why there are so many "reliable-ish" amplifiers on the market. Just an observation, and the amplifier is somewhat more demanding as an application. I'm sorry, but I know from my own work that this isn't such a problem. After all, the lowly voltage regulator manages to survive just fine while operating at what is probably a higher closed loop gain.
I've addressed the first part of your comment already. The second part is well beyond the control of any designer / manufacturer. Look how many amp modules (remember ILP?), regulators, and just about any other device you care to think of, are sacrificed to the fire god across any time frame. Really, this part does not apply to any one thing more than any other. Can we ignore that comment?
Well now you're talking about marketing and all kinds of issues that are again, well beyond the control of any designer. Since this same argument can be applied to every single thing out there, let's ignore it as well. You can only be concerned about things that affect this product beyond other products. Personally, I can't see anything you have focused attention on that doesn't apply to anything else. On top of that, we are all about DIY. We are also concerned about the truth in things we discuss. Electronics is physics - a science. There is no magic involved here, and whatever one person can design or create, another is just as capable of the same.
I'm nothing special as far as knowledge and abilities go. If I have used this concept successfully, many others have as well.
Cheers, Chris
Hi John,
Moderators here are not over and above other members. Most of the time you see us, we are posting exactly as anyone else does. We are subject to the same rules, but we do have to try and hold ourselves to a higher standard. Otherwise, we'd be in the SinBin often. Anyway, John's comment is a low blow, certainly not factual. Also, notice the symbols I used to denote when or which part of a post is official. In this section, I am posting as a moderator.
We said the same thing, but you twisted it to look like you're saying something else. I was very clear on the point that these were not capacitance multipliers. A capacitance multiplier is not capable of this level of performance unless you add a voltage reference to it - making it a voltage regulator circuit. The performance of these Bybee Music Rails
is in the same range as the paper I left a link to. Not very surprisingly, these Bybee products will work well. However, I don't think you like the idea that they are not difficult to make. Just copy the circuit in the link using the information in the same publication to tailor it your needs.
So, do you need this type of device / circuit? That depends on the rest of the circuit they are used in and if there are other issues that create more noise than what is picked up from the power supply. If it matters, then these "Bybee Music Rails" will certainly do the job. No one said they wouldn't. If you feel they are too expensive and you're able to build circuits, then you can build your own. The mechanism is the same in either case, and so should be the performance (depending on your abilities of course).
My personal opinion on this subject is this. John, you are supposed to be a very good engineer. Okay, we'll accept that. If you are unable to design a circuit that can perform in the same ballpark as these using that linked article, you're not half the designer you say you are. My belief is that you can, but plugging these takes priority in your life. That's fair, just be honest about it.
Either that, or I'm simply brilliant! Get real, they are not difficult to make.
-Chris
Smarten up there fella. You are well aware that I am posting as a member as has been explained to you many times. Basically, that's just a dig, an attempt to justify the lack of a reasonable effort to actually teach others what the circuit does and how it does it.
Moderators here are not over and above other members. Most of the time you see us, we are posting exactly as anyone else does. We are subject to the same rules, but we do have to try and hold ourselves to a higher standard. Otherwise, we'd be in the SinBin often. Anyway, John's comment is a low blow, certainly not factual. Also, notice the symbols I used to denote when or which part of a post is official. In this section, I am posting as a moderator.
Babble-speak.
We said the same thing, but you twisted it to look like you're saying something else. I was very clear on the point that these were not capacitance multipliers. A capacitance multiplier is not capable of this level of performance unless you add a voltage reference to it - making it a voltage regulator circuit. The performance of these Bybee Music Rails
is in the same range as the paper I left a link to. Not very surprisingly, these Bybee products will work well. However, I don't think you like the idea that they are not difficult to make. Just copy the circuit in the link using the information in the same publication to tailor it your needs.
John, they are not refined. They were designed to work across a wide range of circuits. It is possible to better the performance by building your own and following the optimization process as the information advises.
So, do you need this type of device / circuit? That depends on the rest of the circuit they are used in and if there are other issues that create more noise than what is picked up from the power supply. If it matters, then these "Bybee Music Rails" will certainly do the job. No one said they wouldn't. If you feel they are too expensive and you're able to build circuits, then you can build your own. The mechanism is the same in either case, and so should be the performance (depending on your abilities of course).
My personal opinion on this subject is this. John, you are supposed to be a very good engineer. Okay, we'll accept that. If you are unable to design a circuit that can perform in the same ballpark as these using that linked article, you're not half the designer you say you are. My belief is that you can, but plugging these takes priority in your life. That's fair, just be honest about it.
Either that, or I'm simply brilliant! Get real, they are not difficult to make.
-Chris
I keep hearing references to capacitance multipliers not working all that well in the real world. Could someone please explain why not?
Cap multipliers work just fine for many things, BUT they do not fix very low frequency deviations that come from line 'breathing'. I use them all the time, but this 'Bybee Music Rail' appears to go deeper in low frequency filtering. It is only a tool, it is not obvious in its internal function, and I know and respect the designers (not me) who developed something that could actually be patented. Of course, the patent ONLY has the concepts that can be defended against. The subtle details are omitted in the patent. This is normal and necessary.
Besides the issues that John mentioned, highish output impedance, poor line rejection, poor load rejection (compared to competently-implemented feedback-based regulators).
This is the second non-informative topic I find on Bybee Products on the DIY forum....🙁
8 pages of...I presume....I think.....I most certainly know...I guess.....It will be......I'll bet.....You can suspect....
DIY means..... Do it yourself....!!!!!!!
A bit pathetique, where is that experimental spirit....you can always sell it on e-bay for a few bucks less...if it does not rock your boat......
Unfortunately nobody in those 8 pages (besides John Curl) even tries the thing involved before forming an opinion....
One even dares to say "overpriced" to un unknown black print of 50 dollars...really come on...!!!!
The only remarkable thing for me so far is that despite the sentence ."....It will NOT be available to DIY guys " .....Parts Connexion sells the stuff...??????
Anyway, maybe good for me who knows.........................or for us.
Anyone out there tried them...or are we all living in a virtual audio-world.
I received one and I certainly will try it out myself, not disturbed by 8 pages of "advice"...maybe starting with implementing them in my Genesis Digital Lens Modified Power Supply...
I must admit I am a bit reluctant to post it in this enviroment where one seems to have a verdict allready.....I'll think about it.🙂
8 pages of...I presume....I think.....I most certainly know...I guess.....It will be......I'll bet.....You can suspect....
DIY means..... Do it yourself....!!!!!!!
A bit pathetique, where is that experimental spirit....you can always sell it on e-bay for a few bucks less...if it does not rock your boat......
Unfortunately nobody in those 8 pages (besides John Curl) even tries the thing involved before forming an opinion....
One even dares to say "overpriced" to un unknown black print of 50 dollars...really come on...!!!!
The only remarkable thing for me so far is that despite the sentence ."....It will NOT be available to DIY guys " .....Parts Connexion sells the stuff...??????
Anyway, maybe good for me who knows.........................or for us.
Anyone out there tried them...or are we all living in a virtual audio-world.
I received one and I certainly will try it out myself, not disturbed by 8 pages of "advice"...maybe starting with implementing them in my Genesis Digital Lens Modified Power Supply...
I must admit I am a bit reluctant to post it in this enviroment where one seems to have a verdict allready.....I'll think about it.🙂
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Many designers don't want to re-invent everything. That is why they use IC's, and even entire gain blocks. The Bybee Music Rail may someday be incorporated into an IC, but not yet. It contains IC's but also other added parts. This costs ANYONE time and trouble to source, build and test. It cost me MORE to wire the units up, than the units actually cost the usual customer. Why?
Techs cost real money. DIY means that you don't mind wasting many hours of your personal time, but don't try it with a technician. It is cheaper just to buy something ready-built, including modules.
Techs cost real money. DIY means that you don't mind wasting many hours of your personal time, but don't try it with a technician. It is cheaper just to buy something ready-built, including modules.
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