The following will likely be my last post in this thread.
[IMHO]
My point is that there is no dead horse that no one is beating.
Because there is no horse at all.
I honestly believe that even if Albert Einstein himself could post evidence that burn-in works, none of those who don't believe it now will believe it later.
And vice versa.
Maybe he would perform a burn-in "because Einstein proved it", but maybe he wouldn't change his belief about it.
And there would always be those who would say they could tell the difference and those who would say that even if they performed a burn-in they couldn't tell the difference.
And they would start to (rightly?) doubt even Einstein's word, around the fact whether a burn-in can really work.
I'm convinced 😳 that one's own beliefs are the strongest to change, and in fact people don't change.
Sometimes it takes centuries...
However, this - in my humble opinion - is where the two paths could meet, paradoxically.
Finally, please note the fact that those who mock someone for their ideas, however abstruse they may seem, do not demonstrate an open mind and the past seems to have taught them nothing yet.
Even if he were a graduate, I don't think he should mock anyone at all. IMVHO
Not to mention those who want to show themselves off as engineers even though they are not, just to better sell their image for profit. 🙄
Also, if you ridicule someone for their ideas then what should you think of an electrical engineer in the audio field who knows nothing about the Psychology of Perception or the Physiology of Hearing?
[/IMHO]
Its from my book which is the missing link between analog electronics, Self, Sloan, Bob, Cordell and Pass. The catch with engineering is this, what's trivial or non trivial in a system is not always obvious. What will work and what will not work is not always obvious. There are many things that limit what we can build or could build, with engineering we are just scratching the surface of what is or could be
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The problem with proving a "burn in" is that it would be necessary to compare a/one device with "itself". And we can only compare two states and not a/one process;-) But we can draw indirect conclusions about "burn in" processes.
Everyone here will have had the experience of audible tuning a system solely by "dampers", i.e. parts that are placed under equipment. If not, then they should tackle this practical experience NOW;-)
Everyone here will have had the experience of audible tuning a system solely by "dampers", i.e. parts that are placed under equipment. If not, then they should tackle this practical experience NOW;-)
existence of this very thread is possible due to very simple fact - it's common thing that people without sufficient mileage in some particular area are willing to present own opinion as undisputed facts
care to be humble, and really ask simple question - to someone who is actually manufacturer?
care to be humble, and really ask simple question - to someone who is actually manufacturer?
Semiconductor manufacture is non trivial, where shortcuts are taken or quality is not enforced one ends up with a noise maker. In the early years of South Korea electronics industry they had the circuits and the engineers but they had bad semiconductors and electronic parts so their products were initially bad , but look now they are doing very well and have quiet products that don't give you a headache or send your dog running away. Todays high quality transformers are so quiet you cant even tell that they are on. A lot has changed for quality parts, we are where we wanted to be. But for bad parts they are just as nasty as they were from the start. Imagine using bad parts on a class D amplifier or switch mode power supply, you get one step closer to going crazy. Even for the same batch of high quality parts, grading maybe necessary and burn in will sort the rest.
I honestly believe that all the supporters of this claim have a physical background at the other end of the universe compared to Einstein.
Thus this sentence does not make any sense at all.
well, someone actually did remember what manufacturer said....... even if saying wasn't direct answer, rather cheeky remark
I'll go one better(-:
Einstein was not a physicist, because in order to do physics, to do in "objects", you have to be able to distinguish object and concept;-) Einstein reified concepts, he even bent them😉
Einstein was not a physicist, because in order to do physics, to do in "objects", you have to be able to distinguish object and concept;-) Einstein reified concepts, he even bent them😉
One makes nice digital recordings before and after for comparison. If accompanied by measurements, all the better. Problem solved.
They could also be shared for others to experience/evaluate, God forbid.
Certainly you are the greatest scientist on earth. Even Einstein would have bowed deeply if he knew you.
So, are you saying that most people have bad solder connections in their equipment?
I don't get the fuss about this as it is really a no-brainer. Everybody knows that something that is "in" is positive and "out" is negative. Burnout is a bad thing so naturally every audiophile knows that burnin must be a good thing. This also explains why burnin never results in worse sound as then it would be called burnout 😉
The thing about science is it doesn't matter if it's Einstein or an average Joe who posts it, if someone provides good evidence that burn-in is a real phenomenon, I'll believe it. I'll give bonus points if I can actually hear the difference between a new and burned-in device. More bonus points for an engineering explanation for what's happening (this could help give the "burned in" sound from the start).
I thought I had posted this link in this thread, but don't see it. I've always (well, since finding it a couple decades ago) found this to be fascinating reading, and I easily see parallels between these people and some audiophiles:
https://www.susanblackmore.uk/chapters/why-i-have-given-up/
I don't believe it's an issue of some manufacturer knowing "something" about burn-in and some else not, and it even seems that for some reason some manufacturer should be considered more authoritative than other ones.
In my view, no one seems to have any evidence one way or the other, and if it has then it is generally not well received, otherwise the issue would apparently be already solved.
But it does seem not. 🤔
Really I don't know how you don't realize that Einstein was just an example of an authoritative scientist, not a comparison of my thinking with his thinking. 🙄
However, in my view, your opinion is worth exactly as much as anyone else's here and out there.
But it's clear that if you cited science it would no longer be your opinion, but a fact.
Until it was disproved by a different fact that replaced the previous demonstration with the scientific method.
So, in my view, there is little to be arrogant here as out there.
While I'm glad you realized the why I mentioned Einstein name, what you say about "average Joe" is theoretically noble, but practically almost impossible, because the average person has almost no chance of proving anything scientifically about burn-in and even if they did they would be at the very least opposed and ridiculed by the scientific community, as has already happened countless times in the past.
Just like it happens here.
In my view, here it seems to just arguing and it seems like some have no intention of stopping doing it.
And no, the content of your link from the year 2001 does not prove anything since in my opinion the so-called "audiophiles" are a functional invention, of yesterday as of today.
Or at least those so described as such are very few, if any.
But even just one is enough to create a nice and useless controversy, isn't it?
What not even you seem to want to realize is that we here need a point of meet, not of conflict. IMHO
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What is burn-in and why?
by Zu Audio.
Zu Audio (Ogden, Utah - USA) is an American company established in the year 2000.
About Zu Audio
https://www.zuaudio.com/philosophy
by Zu Audio.
Zu Audio (Ogden, Utah - USA) is an American company established in the year 2000.
About Zu Audio
https://www.zuaudio.com/philosophy
I don't think so.
Yours is precisely a very old way of continuing to argue without proposing any argument.
I know the purpose of your contentless posts. 😉
Yours is precisely a very old way of continuing to argue without proposing any argument.
I know the purpose of your contentless posts. 😉