Cheap price and good quality is a silly order. Anything times 3 (or 4) is as many times more expensive. If quality is kept the same as 1k amp, the production volume would need to be a lot more to get price down three fold 😀 unless compromise in quality or huge manufacturing runs, which aint gonna happen 🙂
There are market for the very cheap stuff, hence many adau1701 + class-d chip amps boards available. A 2.1 system with programmable adau1701 costs no more than your favourite single malt whiskey. Quality and features are pretty good for the money. Next step is the Hypex plate amps, about 150 per amp channel? Better quality than that, go for pro audio market. Powersoft T304 amp with built in DSP, a 1u solution, costs maybe 2-3k? Similar price per channel as 1k integrated stereo amp.
There are market for the very cheap stuff, hence many adau1701 + class-d chip amps boards available. A 2.1 system with programmable adau1701 costs no more than your favourite single malt whiskey. Quality and features are pretty good for the money. Next step is the Hypex plate amps, about 150 per amp channel? Better quality than that, go for pro audio market. Powersoft T304 amp with built in DSP, a 1u solution, costs maybe 2-3k? Similar price per channel as 1k integrated stereo amp.
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^^^ +1 As I said in the other thread, the biggest hurdle to going full active is cost. Extreme high performance sound quality is possible. A high level of convenience is possible. A highly integrated look and feel (not a rats nest of cables) is possible... But none of this is cheap.
Well, that is one of the major issues of DSP, good quality dsp costs to much compared to good quality passive. Even with expensive (good quality, not esotheric) parts, the end price is much cheaper passive for the quality you get. And it's more convienent also. And when well designed, it's not bad sounding, contrairy of what some of you say. That is the main reason why most hifi stuff sold in stores that sell hi quality hifi is still passive and wil remain passive untill those points are sorted out. And it's also the reason why many diy builders still remain using passive filters
Off course i know now it's not possible what i ask, but to make it appealing it will have to. And the ADU + chip amp boards don't cut it for me nor the mainstream of music lovers that buy quality equipment. Hypex plate amps are also not that good on the dsp side (very buggy software), but are a good step in the right direction
For diy users those points (except the quality of components) are less an issue, but that is a very small part of the music lovers. Most here are very technical and love sorting those things out, but not the rest of the world (+99%) that want to listen to quality systems. And very few can spend 10K to their music system.
@CharlieLaub There is something of that sort - Buchardt uses it but it is unavailable for DIY-ers.
WiSA Amplifiers – Platin Gate
WiSA Amplifiers – Platin Gate
2 ways active + passive from the second amp to the treble
Sourcing may be difficult but there are plenty of little speaker made as what Charlie wants to acherive DIY : Edifier(R) Speakers for instance at Amazon. That's with dsp but there are tons of true pro 2 ways that are cheap with all embedded. Take the Behringer B2031 active monitor : take the embedded electronic and why not the front baffle and the cabinet then tweak for better driver that feet the crossover ?? (but here it's a no dsp but classic highs attenuation)
There are also a lot of class AB products amps that are cheap and good for the mid and treble while class D is of course what one needs in the lows.
For the DSP parts I would try Wondom/Sure electronic DSP that is cheap.
But nothing wrong to go 2 ways active/passive with two amps, the treble being keep from the upper mid amp but with passive filter between the mid and treble drivers. passive parts are cheap when not huge.
The question is how little and how much for the Q/P.
Slightly off topic but illustration is it's easy if you are the sourcing king on Ali, Ebay, etc.
Sourcing may be difficult but there are plenty of little speaker made as what Charlie wants to acherive DIY : Edifier(R) Speakers for instance at Amazon. That's with dsp but there are tons of true pro 2 ways that are cheap with all embedded. Take the Behringer B2031 active monitor : take the embedded electronic and why not the front baffle and the cabinet then tweak for better driver that feet the crossover ?? (but here it's a no dsp but classic highs attenuation)
There are also a lot of class AB products amps that are cheap and good for the mid and treble while class D is of course what one needs in the lows.
For the DSP parts I would try Wondom/Sure electronic DSP that is cheap.
But nothing wrong to go 2 ways active/passive with two amps, the treble being keep from the upper mid amp but with passive filter between the mid and treble drivers. passive parts are cheap when not huge.
The question is how little and how much for the Q/P.
Slightly off topic but illustration is it's easy if you are the sourcing king on Ali, Ebay, etc.
There's one more issue with each speaker having its own processing, the clocks. Though the clocks for all the DSPs would be of the same nominal frequency, there could still be differences due to drift, jitter etc. that could impact fidelity matching across different channels (speakers).
Nevertheless, I can see one advantage with such an all-in-one method, and that is the "ease of replication". You could design one speaker and simply make any number of copies of its PCBs, code and mechanical design and get as many speakers as you want.
Nevertheless, I can see one advantage with such an all-in-one method, and that is the "ease of replication". You could design one speaker and simply make any number of copies of its PCBs, code and mechanical design and get as many speakers as you want.
From experience, it might actually not be the best option to have everything in each speaker. I would actually prefer to have a dedicated dsp based preamp and then plate amps in the speakers. A tpa3255 in 2x SE + 1x BTL would do well in that role, using the back plate for dissipation. DrMordor's amps, with integrated PS would be perfect.
It could be done two ways: either by using a full plate amp with integrated DSP and a simplified one with only the amplification or by having an external preamp and two plate amps. The last option actually makes more sense in a full living room setup, the first is more practical on a desk. Either way, running balanced line level signals in a single multicore cable is just one cable.
A kind of interesting mix between digital and analog is to have "ideal" LR4 filters at the inputs of the plate amp. It provides some safety to the drivers when messing with the dsp as well as freeing up some processing power in a lower end setup.
edit: just pricing it out...
- full minidsp 2x8 kit: 340$
- case and connectors for it: 80$
- two drMordor amps: 320$
- aluminum backplates, some connectors and so on: 60$
Total 800$, plus shipping, import fees, etc. Not exactly cheap but not outrageous either.
It could be done two ways: either by using a full plate amp with integrated DSP and a simplified one with only the amplification or by having an external preamp and two plate amps. The last option actually makes more sense in a full living room setup, the first is more practical on a desk. Either way, running balanced line level signals in a single multicore cable is just one cable.
A kind of interesting mix between digital and analog is to have "ideal" LR4 filters at the inputs of the plate amp. It provides some safety to the drivers when messing with the dsp as well as freeing up some processing power in a lower end setup.
edit: just pricing it out...
- full minidsp 2x8 kit: 340$
- case and connectors for it: 80$
- two drMordor amps: 320$
- aluminum backplates, some connectors and so on: 60$
Total 800$, plus shipping, import fees, etc. Not exactly cheap but not outrageous either.
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What's wrong with one DAC feeding a DSP? I don't believe multiple conversions effect sound quality at all. Is that the issue here? I read above about "wires all over the place" and I don't get it. I use a laptop to a DAC to a DSP to a six channel amp to the loudspeakers. One wire to each enclosure. This is a simple as it can get.
a good dac is mandatory for a good sound. It matters a lot. Most of the time the last DAC is not good enough, plus the clock drift from the beginning of the chain untill it, ADC process in the middle... You have more to loose than to winn.
It's ok for a casual inexpensive system though. In the list above, due to the Minidsp >I would not use DrMord : too much good and expensive in front of a MiniDSP, two 50 euros multiple amps with less power will be good enough . YMMV of course.
The only problem I see is if embedded, sealed is complex for heat cooling, so vented is certainly a design choice, whatever class D.
Dacs like OKTODAC Pro for instance doesn't provide filter cut-offs and slope on its 8 outputs channels , you still need a passive filter in front of each amp, at least my understanding.
It's ok for a casual inexpensive system though. In the list above, due to the Minidsp >I would not use DrMord : too much good and expensive in front of a MiniDSP, two 50 euros multiple amps with less power will be good enough . YMMV of course.
The only problem I see is if embedded, sealed is complex for heat cooling, so vented is certainly a design choice, whatever class D.
Dacs like OKTODAC Pro for instance doesn't provide filter cut-offs and slope on its 8 outputs channels , you still need a passive filter in front of each amp, at least my understanding.
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Just a note, the 2X8 minidsp is the diy equivalent of the 4x10hd. I wouldn't cheapen out too much on amps afterwards. Power wise, a tpa3255 in a 2.1 config isn't that powerful, especially into 8ohms drivers.
Funny enough, drMordor himself (not to be confused with doctormord) suggested the minidsp hd.
Funny enough, drMordor himself (not to be confused with doctormord) suggested the minidsp hd.
We have had ALL those option for years here - 3 way, 4 way, plateamps, diy, seperates and full fletched digitally controlled analog volume with 8 channel DSP in a pre-amp:
Ground Sound - sadly discontinued.
But it was not cheap - for some - compared to what really? Some people pay way more for only a cd-player or a single stereo-amp.
But boy, does it work well, and I miss nothing that any other amplifier could bring, when it comes to sound quality 😎
I have had my GS gear for years now.... and hope it'll keep running for years still 🙂
I've heard and worked with both Behringer and Minidsp. Behringer is fine for subwoofer - but way to noisy for higher up.
Minidsp is fine too.... and can be found to be low enough in noise level, when chosen with the right gear, or combined with some attenuation. One of the models even has "solved" the noise.... but cant remember which.
Ground Sound - sadly discontinued.
But it was not cheap - for some - compared to what really? Some people pay way more for only a cd-player or a single stereo-amp.
But boy, does it work well, and I miss nothing that any other amplifier could bring, when it comes to sound quality 😎
I have had my GS gear for years now.... and hope it'll keep running for years still 🙂
I've heard and worked with both Behringer and Minidsp. Behringer is fine for subwoofer - but way to noisy for higher up.
Minidsp is fine too.... and can be found to be low enough in noise level, when chosen with the right gear, or combined with some attenuation. One of the models even has "solved" the noise.... but cant remember which.
Above, plus ability to put each such board in each L/R speaker. Optional BT/HDMI daughter boards/cards. Optional software for room EQ, just drop measured curves into the software and it applies auto EQ.
Just run 8 core cable and NL8 connectors, otherwise every speaker needs and expensive amp. Then attach 8 channel DSP amp:
X8 - Powersoft
48M Series Amplifiers - Linea Research
I'm not aware of a cheap 8 channel amp with DSP but two cheaper 4 channel units could be used:
Unknown Item – Thomann Norway
Or separate DSP and 8 channel install amp (available cheaply 2nd hand)
You could even use the HYPEX plate amps and just put them in a box separate to the speaker.
There are also cheaper DSP plate amps:
D3 900W 3 Channel Class D High Frequency Amplifier Module for Line Array|Operational Amplifier Chips| - AliExpress
no idea if these are any good.
X8 - Powersoft
48M Series Amplifiers - Linea Research
I'm not aware of a cheap 8 channel amp with DSP but two cheaper 4 channel units could be used:
Unknown Item – Thomann Norway
Or separate DSP and 8 channel install amp (available cheaply 2nd hand)
You could even use the HYPEX plate amps and just put them in a box separate to the speaker.
There are also cheaper DSP plate amps:
D3 900W 3 Channel Class D High Frequency Amplifier Module for Line Array|Operational Amplifier Chips| - AliExpress
no idea if these are any good.
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Many commercial switching amps pull out their feedback before the choke, which is a matter of great concern, as the choke is inherently non-linear. However, Mr. Bruno Putzeys' amplifiers (UcD / Ncore) are topologically different and correctly include the choke inside the feedback loop. At times, even kelvin sensing is used with such feedback designs, to compensate for cable distance losses.
Since opening screws to check the same is not usually an option (before purchase), it's better to stay with class-D topologies that are known to use post-filter feedback, if fidelity is the goal.
I'm unconvinced the output inductor has to be inside the feedback loop. TPA3255 EVM measures well without such a constraint:
TI TPA3255 EVM
– QuantAsylum
only downside seems to be relativly high output impedance in the higher frequencies. Quite a lot of speakers have passive crossovers in them also featuring inductors 😉
TI TPA3255 EVM
– QuantAsylum
only downside seems to be relativly high output impedance in the higher frequencies. Quite a lot of speakers have passive crossovers in them also featuring inductors 😉
How does the Hypex Fusion series not check most, or even all of these boxes?
The smallest 3-channel is 2x125W + 100W. You can daisy chain up to 5 of them with SPDIF, and control volume on all of them all with a remote. Every input - RCA, XLR, optical, AES - is supported. The unit has a dizzying array of hardware settings and good filter software. Amps and DSP quality are certainly "good enough."
This is beginning to sound like an advertisement, but there's nothing else even close on the market right now. I had some QC issues with early units but now everything just works fine. I use these in PA speakers and pound them all night long, even the ones without fans, with no problems.
The smallest 3-channel is 2x125W + 100W. You can daisy chain up to 5 of them with SPDIF, and control volume on all of them all with a remote. Every input - RCA, XLR, optical, AES - is supported. The unit has a dizzying array of hardware settings and good filter software. Amps and DSP quality are certainly "good enough."
This is beginning to sound like an advertisement, but there's nothing else even close on the market right now. I had some QC issues with early units but now everything just works fine. I use these in PA speakers and pound them all night long, even the ones without fans, with no problems.
I had the same thought from the start of this thread. The FA-123 seems to check every box of the original wish list... except that it does not cost less than $75 and it is larger than a mobile phone.
The crux of the problem is the disparate requirements that's presented to an all-in-one solution. This customer wants 100W+100W+100W+100W+200W, while others may be entirely satisfied with 5+20. Then there's the analog hangers on. How are you going to do it all, including get from a phono cartridge to DSP to SPL in the air - and still have it sound good to everyone who listens - without wires?
1st step toward simplicity is completely giving up on analog. To some, that's "pry it from my cold dead fingers". 2nd step is give up power, aka Watts. Live without the wine-glass shattering SPLs - leave that to the car audio competitions, where it's not even physically possible to be in the cab during performance. (How realistic is that..?)
Another ridiculous requirement is "continuous operation". Who listens at performance levels 24 / 7? If they can make an electric car perform reasonably relative to the gasoline status quo, one would think they could make a battery powered speaker perform well, relative to how long most anyone sits down to listen. Or likes to work around the house with something going on in the background. Charge them? You charge your phone, car, laptop, BT headphones - BFD.
1st step toward simplicity is completely giving up on analog. To some, that's "pry it from my cold dead fingers". 2nd step is give up power, aka Watts. Live without the wine-glass shattering SPLs - leave that to the car audio competitions, where it's not even physically possible to be in the cab during performance. (How realistic is that..?)
Another ridiculous requirement is "continuous operation". Who listens at performance levels 24 / 7? If they can make an electric car perform reasonably relative to the gasoline status quo, one would think they could make a battery powered speaker perform well, relative to how long most anyone sits down to listen. Or likes to work around the house with something going on in the background. Charge them? You charge your phone, car, laptop, BT headphones - BFD.
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For anyone liking the idea of 3-way plate amps, I agree. Hypex is pretty dang sweet.
The only thing i wish Hypex did differently, is their bi-quad implementation. It appears to bind tuning to their software, their procedure. Maybe not, but it's been something i've been unwilling to explore. That's a big negative imho.
And why i chose the PWR-ICE plateamps instead. (But PWR-ICE has the big drawback of only two-channels....i used it on a prosound 15" coax.)
Other than channel count, the PWR-ICE checks all the boxes for me (when i want to use a plate amp) ...
Oh, other than digital over ethernet. Which i take is the coming line-level standard. (and will no doubt include wireless)
The manufacturers for TPA3255 themselves seem to agree, nevertheless.
Yes, but passive multi-ways are rarely crossed over in the active way... 😕