Hi,
Didn't I specifically state that I don't know them?
Since you mention them in one breath together with the Arcotronics KP72 and ERO KP1832 series as being "fundamentally neutral" one can now only assume that one is more neutral than the other?
If the LCR is close to the Audyn Supreme range than they must be a steal but not necessarilly "neutral".
In your system. Is your system neutral?
Are you?
Thanks for the invite but I don't do interstellar visits...yet.
They can go up to the moon for all I care, if you feed them bandwidth limited content they're still useless.
That's pretty meaningless without the proper context.
10KHz squarewaves don't impress me much either, especially not when one needs to tune a circuit to get there in the first place...
I think not but I won't make it into a hobby of pointing to it either.
Cheers,😉
Didn't I specifically state that I don't know them?
Since you mention them in one breath together with the Arcotronics KP72 and ERO KP1832 series as being "fundamentally neutral" one can now only assume that one is more neutral than the other?
If the LCR is close to the Audyn Supreme range than they must be a steal but not necessarilly "neutral".
In your system. Is your system neutral?
Are you?
Thanks for the invite but I don't do interstellar visits...yet.
They can go up to the moon for all I care, if you feed them bandwidth limited content they're still useless.
That's pretty meaningless without the proper context.
10KHz squarewaves don't impress me much either, especially not when one needs to tune a circuit to get there in the first place...
I think not but I won't make it into a hobby of pointing to it either.
Cheers,😉
Konnichiwa,
Just a note, mention the LCR Foil & Film (they have been discontinued by Farnell, not sure if they are still being made) , Arcotronic KP1.72 and the (long discontinued) ERO KP1832 are mentioned in one block because I consider them in essence interchangable, they all show very little observable difference to a piece of wire and each other, in coupling applications.
I attribute this to their essentially identical mechanical and electrical arrangement and the in essence identical materials used. And yes, they share mechanical and electrical arrangements and materials used with the Mundorf Supreme and Audyn Plus (sorry, I mixed up the designations, easy to do given the similarities), which also share their sound, or rather absence of.
They all are very close, at least to my ears. And yes, they are a steal but sadly limited to 0.47uF as largest value, meaning there are still many values requiring other choices.
Does it matter if a system is Neutral if we are comparing to a wire and attempt to identify one from the other?
In what sense? Do I have stocks in LCR, Arcotronics, ERO, Radio Spares (RS) and Farnell? Nope and yes, I pay the normal prices everyone pays and never even bothered to get free samples either.
Well, that explains a few things, always thought you where far out. If you ever find yourself on Planet Earth, drop by in London. Cool?
Perhaps I should termed it "near perfect 10KHz squarewave reproduction"? And I know few circuits that do that without some finetuning, most show either rounded off edges or ringing, this includes a lot of commercially available gear BTW....
That puts you into a category several levels above certain others. Have fun and do try the Arcotronic KP1.72 as coupling cap's, you can get them from RS components UK, not sure if they ship to Betelgeuse or where ever you are though.
http://rswww.com/
Search For Part Number:
114-626
Sayonara
Just a note, mention the LCR Foil & Film (they have been discontinued by Farnell, not sure if they are still being made) , Arcotronic KP1.72 and the (long discontinued) ERO KP1832 are mentioned in one block because I consider them in essence interchangable, they all show very little observable difference to a piece of wire and each other, in coupling applications.
I attribute this to their essentially identical mechanical and electrical arrangement and the in essence identical materials used. And yes, they share mechanical and electrical arrangements and materials used with the Mundorf Supreme and Audyn Plus (sorry, I mixed up the designations, easy to do given the similarities), which also share their sound, or rather absence of.
fdegrove said:
They all are very close, at least to my ears. And yes, they are a steal but sadly limited to 0.47uF as largest value, meaning there are still many values requiring other choices.
fdegrove said:
Does it matter if a system is Neutral if we are comparing to a wire and attempt to identify one from the other?
fdegrove said:
In what sense? Do I have stocks in LCR, Arcotronics, ERO, Radio Spares (RS) and Farnell? Nope and yes, I pay the normal prices everyone pays and never even bothered to get free samples either.
fdegrove said:
Well, that explains a few things, always thought you where far out. If you ever find yourself on Planet Earth, drop by in London. Cool?
fdegrove said:
Perhaps I should termed it "near perfect 10KHz squarewave reproduction"? And I know few circuits that do that without some finetuning, most show either rounded off edges or ringing, this includes a lot of commercially available gear BTW....
fdegrove said:
That puts you into a category several levels above certain others. Have fun and do try the Arcotronic KP1.72 as coupling cap's, you can get them from RS components UK, not sure if they ship to Betelgeuse or where ever you are though.
http://rswww.com/
Search For Part Number:
114-626
Sayonara
I would to list my listen impression of se with both el34 and 300b
With improper heater arrangement, some hum is left on my 96db speakers.300b is AC heated and so is the el34
I find the el34 to be less defined, less bass extension, less detail and less air compared to the 300b. I found the 300b had totally surpass the el34 in most aspects too. depending on the driver i find 300b's to be totally different in sound character if the driver is made differently. This totaly corresponds to what thorsten has been stressing about. My 300b's sound fast, uncolor unlike most 300b's they don't have the se magic but i love it for that.
I built the billie amp before and lamented that it suck big time but after i built my own 300b with 12ax7 srpp with plate feedback i found the 300b's to greatly surpass the el34. Also to note that i have found that kt88 sound more muddle and fat and 6550 sonic close to the el34 but sounds thin compared to el34. To me el34 was the best among the beam tetrodes/pentode for audio. BUT even then the dht always sound better i think, i had both 2a3 and 300b in the same configuration and it sounds better than the pentode/tetrode brothers
i used a eh300b, sovteck 2a3, svet and jj el34, eh 6550 and ehkt88 for comparision in this post
By the way i have used the acrotronics stuff before and can confirm they do sound neutral to me. I used them alot in my amps.
With improper heater arrangement, some hum is left on my 96db speakers.300b is AC heated and so is the el34
I find the el34 to be less defined, less bass extension, less detail and less air compared to the 300b. I found the 300b had totally surpass the el34 in most aspects too. depending on the driver i find 300b's to be totally different in sound character if the driver is made differently. This totaly corresponds to what thorsten has been stressing about. My 300b's sound fast, uncolor unlike most 300b's they don't have the se magic but i love it for that.
I built the billie amp before and lamented that it suck big time but after i built my own 300b with 12ax7 srpp with plate feedback i found the 300b's to greatly surpass the el34. Also to note that i have found that kt88 sound more muddle and fat and 6550 sonic close to the el34 but sounds thin compared to el34. To me el34 was the best among the beam tetrodes/pentode for audio. BUT even then the dht always sound better i think, i had both 2a3 and 300b in the same configuration and it sounds better than the pentode/tetrode brothers
i used a eh300b, sovteck 2a3, svet and jj el34, eh 6550 and ehkt88 for comparision in this post
By the way i have used the acrotronics stuff before and can confirm they do sound neutral to me. I used them alot in my amps.
Sorry if this is way off topic but do you get perfect square waves out of your IT PP amp? What kind of ITs are you using? As the secondaries are unloaded it is amazing that there is no ringing.
Konnichiwa,
Not perfect, there is a slight rounding of of the edges. It was that which I "tuned" away by cancelling the Miller Grid capacitance of the output stage.
Custom versions of the S&B TX-101, which sadly will not be likely to go into production.
There is virtually no load whatsoever (even the capacitive load from the output Valves is cancelled) and the transformers displayed minimal ringing (unloaded) on their own. A lot of the damping for that comes from the source impedance (differential tube stage), the rest is damped by the lowpass behaviour of the Output transformer, which is the bandwidth limiting element in the amplifier, the whole 100 series in it's later versions uses special geometries that elimiate ringing even unloaded, a fallout from the development of the MK III TX-102.
Sayonara
analog_sa said:
Not perfect, there is a slight rounding of of the edges. It was that which I "tuned" away by cancelling the Miller Grid capacitance of the output stage.
analog_sa said:
Custom versions of the S&B TX-101, which sadly will not be likely to go into production.
analog_sa said:
There is virtually no load whatsoever (even the capacitive load from the output Valves is cancelled) and the transformers displayed minimal ringing (unloaded) on their own. A lot of the damping for that comes from the source impedance (differential tube stage), the rest is damped by the lowpass behaviour of the Output transformer, which is the bandwidth limiting element in the amplifier, the whole 100 series in it's later versions uses special geometries that elimiate ringing even unloaded, a fallout from the development of the MK III TX-102.
Sayonara
observations
Hi Nick.
Thanks for your observations, but a couple of comments you made seem to indicate some problems.
But first off, I don't especially care for EL34s either. I mainly use the KT88s, but brands make a big sonic difference, like any other tube.
<With improper heater arrangement, some hum is left on my 96db speakers.300b is AC heated and so is the el34
I find the el34 to be less defined, less bass extension, less detail and less air compared to the 300b.>
I find this to be true too Nick. The EL34s don't have the aire of the SVKT88s. They are also high distortion tubes. I really don't care for them either.
< Also to note that i have found that kt88 sound more muddle and fat and 6550 sonic close to the el34 but sounds thin compared to el34.>
Alot depends on the design, parts used etc. "Muddle" and "thin" tells me there is something not quite right in the design for the KT88 and EL34. The design has to optimized for each tube, and all the parts used must be "neutral" sounding parts. Sonic feedback through the power supply (if used) also plays a role in the sound.
<i used a eh300b, sovteck 2a3, svet and jj el34, eh 6550 and ehkt88 for comparision in this post>
Each brand will sound different. I also have the EHKT88s, and I have to design around them differently than say, SVKT88s.
I prefer SVKt88s and SV6550s. But even then, each of these tubes must have an optimum design and they sound different from one another. EI KT90s sound different than the above, and I do like the sound, although they are having quality control problems.
Thanks for your observations Nick and take care.
Steve
SAS Audio Labs
Hi Nick.
Thanks for your observations, but a couple of comments you made seem to indicate some problems.
But first off, I don't especially care for EL34s either. I mainly use the KT88s, but brands make a big sonic difference, like any other tube.
<With improper heater arrangement, some hum is left on my 96db speakers.300b is AC heated and so is the el34
I find the el34 to be less defined, less bass extension, less detail and less air compared to the 300b.>
I find this to be true too Nick. The EL34s don't have the aire of the SVKT88s. They are also high distortion tubes. I really don't care for them either.
< Also to note that i have found that kt88 sound more muddle and fat and 6550 sonic close to the el34 but sounds thin compared to el34.>
Alot depends on the design, parts used etc. "Muddle" and "thin" tells me there is something not quite right in the design for the KT88 and EL34. The design has to optimized for each tube, and all the parts used must be "neutral" sounding parts. Sonic feedback through the power supply (if used) also plays a role in the sound.
<i used a eh300b, sovteck 2a3, svet and jj el34, eh 6550 and ehkt88 for comparision in this post>
Each brand will sound different. I also have the EHKT88s, and I have to design around them differently than say, SVKT88s.
I prefer SVKt88s and SV6550s. But even then, each of these tubes must have an optimum design and they sound different from one another. EI KT90s sound different than the above, and I do like the sound, although they are having quality control problems.
Thanks for your observations Nick and take care.
Steve
SAS Audio Labs
caps
Frank,
I believe you are correct Frank, especially with a .47uf value.
"Don't know the LCR range and neither do I know what the heck "fundamentally neutral" means, I do know however that those caps are a far cry from what I'd consider to be neutral."
Frank,
I believe you are correct Frank, especially with a .47uf value.
"Don't know the LCR range and neither do I know what the heck "fundamentally neutral" means, I do know however that those caps are a far cry from what I'd consider to be neutral."
Hi (hola), I read carefully EVERY post in this thread and thanks a lots for all, i LEARN very much and my question is, any of us take a coffe black, others whit milk, other whit sugar and, here my question, who have a REAL taste of coffe for everyone, i belive in colours not black and white, i choose for a particular music one more punch (rock, pop) or more medium freq (choral, unplugged) or more treble (aka: jazz or disco), i am a hereje or simply human. So this neutrality is better than the colored for all or only for some of us?.The question is who HAVE the truth.
Thanks from a newbie in a tube world, but a veteran in discussion like this (linux vs windows, bible or darwin, radio control or u control, and many, many others)
Thanks from a newbie in a tube world, but a veteran in discussion like this (linux vs windows, bible or darwin, radio control or u control, and many, many others)
Hi (hola), I read carefully EVERY post in this thread and thanks a lots for all, i LEARN very much and my question is, any of us take a coffe black, others whit milk, other whit sugar and, here my question, who have a REAL taste of coffe for everyone, i belive in colours not black and white, i choose for a particular music one more punch (rock, pop) or more medium freq (choral, unplugged) or more treble ( jazz or disco), i am a hereje or simply human?. So this neutrality is better than the colored for all or only for some of us?.The question is who HAVE the truth.
Thanks from a newbie in a tube world, but a veteran in discussion like this (linux vs windows, bible or darwin, radio control or u-control,all blacks or wallabies, and many, many others)
Thanks from a newbie in a tube world, but a veteran in discussion like this (linux vs windows, bible or darwin, radio control or u-control,all blacks or wallabies, and many, many others)
Hi,
What you like or not like is highly personal.
To find out what is neutral sounding and what isn't you'll need to establish a reference by which others can be judged.
Without such absolutes everything else is rather meaningless.
Cheers,😉
What you like or not like is highly personal.
To find out what is neutral sounding and what isn't you'll need to establish a reference by which others can be judged.
Without such absolutes everything else is rather meaningless.
Cheers,😉
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