I don't have the patience for the book-length call-and-response, so if you'll forgive me, I'll just hit the two highlights.
I use the two in conjunction. I've become convinced that the virtues of galvanic isolation outweigh the disadvantages of running the signal through an additional magnetic circuit. I'm less convinced that voltage step up with the transformer is as easy of a call.
It doesn't matter if you're talking about troughs or peaks (normally kind of relative anyway; most speakers' impedance modulus plots look like a trail map above the bass resonance. That means frequency response changes in the midrange that are well above established thresholds of audibility. What happens for any particular speaker in the bass as you put a series resistor of 8 ohms or so in series with it is something easy to accurately simulate. One may like this effect in the bass or the midrange, and I won't argue the merits of my design goals versus someone else's, but it's clearly an effect, it's not accuracy.
I use the two in conjunction. I've become convinced that the virtues of galvanic isolation outweigh the disadvantages of running the signal through an additional magnetic circuit. I'm less convinced that voltage step up with the transformer is as easy of a call.
It doesn't matter if you're talking about troughs or peaks (normally kind of relative anyway; most speakers' impedance modulus plots look like a trail map above the bass resonance. That means frequency response changes in the midrange that are well above established thresholds of audibility. What happens for any particular speaker in the bass as you put a series resistor of 8 ohms or so in series with it is something easy to accurately simulate. One may like this effect in the bass or the midrange, and I won't argue the merits of my design goals versus someone else's, but it's clearly an effect, it's not accuracy.
Guys, this thread is about helping me and others in deciding which is the better set of tubes to build an amplifier with not about one upmanship of your respective skilss, knowledge and opinion.
Everyone's view here is valid, in audio this is particularly true as one persons utopia is anothers misery.
Lets just try and help each other out and take each opinion as given with best intentions.
Thanks for all the help
Regards
Ralf
Everyone's view here is valid, in audio this is particularly true as one persons utopia is anothers misery.
Lets just try and help each other out and take each opinion as given with best intentions.
Thanks for all the help
Regards
Ralf
Well, DVDHack, you asked a loaded question! Topology is just as important a consideration as tube type. And clearly people have strong opinions on both. I think there have been some pretty good nuggets of useful information amidst the meandering.
Ralf,
If you are prepared to go a little off beat, I'd strongly suggest this amplifier from Pete Millett, who used to own Wheatfield Audio.
It's not his simplest - there is a variety to choose from - but all his website makes a marvellous read and it will give you an excellent overview.
http://www.pmillett.addr.com/813_se_triode_amps.htm
Another useful website which is commercial but really has good circuits is this one in Japan: http://www.icl.co.jp/audio/english/
They have comprehensive documentation, with clear indication of huge experience and very careful component selection.
Unfortunately, you really have to 'own' much of the experience of DIY tube gear before you feel entirely happy to start building. It means a fair amount of study, but if you are in any way compulsive-obsessive, it's very enjoyable, riveting reading.
Oh, and by the way, there is no right answer. There is one more factor to consider aside from cost and quality - it is perception!!
Cheers,
Hugh
If you are prepared to go a little off beat, I'd strongly suggest this amplifier from Pete Millett, who used to own Wheatfield Audio.
It's not his simplest - there is a variety to choose from - but all his website makes a marvellous read and it will give you an excellent overview.
http://www.pmillett.addr.com/813_se_triode_amps.htm
Another useful website which is commercial but really has good circuits is this one in Japan: http://www.icl.co.jp/audio/english/
They have comprehensive documentation, with clear indication of huge experience and very careful component selection.
Unfortunately, you really have to 'own' much of the experience of DIY tube gear before you feel entirely happy to start building. It means a fair amount of study, but if you are in any way compulsive-obsessive, it's very enjoyable, riveting reading.
Oh, and by the way, there is no right answer. There is one more factor to consider aside from cost and quality - it is perception!!
Cheers,
Hugh
Microprocessor controlled Power Supply !!!!! Sounds like the ultimate cultural clash.
The 813 seems to have pleny of power. Has anyone has a listen to this one.
I'm thinking my speakers may become Duntechs, if I go with the big buggers then the ppower would be real handy. Duntech recommend 100w.
The 813 seems to have pleny of power. Has anyone has a listen to this one.
I'm thinking my speakers may become Duntechs, if I go with the big buggers then the ppower would be real handy. Duntech recommend 100w.
What are the thoughts on The COVI Mark II 100 W OTL Amplifier
http://members.aol.com/aria3/
It seems to have lots of power, uses 6C33C tubes, doesn't require expensive output transformers, uses solid state rectification and appears easy to construct.
Where is the catch?
http://members.aol.com/aria3/
It seems to have lots of power, uses 6C33C tubes, doesn't require expensive output transformers, uses solid state rectification and appears easy to construct.
Where is the catch?
Ralf,
I sell SS amp kitsets, not strictly what you are after. I do sell hybrid tube/SS preamps, but I'd be very happy to meet and chew the fat over a cup of good coffee.......
Cheers,
Hugh
I sell SS amp kitsets, not strictly what you are after. I do sell hybrid tube/SS preamps, but I'd be very happy to meet and chew the fat over a cup of good coffee.......
Cheers,
Hugh
Hi,
That project seems like it hasn't advanced one bit over the last few years as they have trouble keeping the 6C33Cs in line.
It's an OTL design based around the circlotron design and although MC decided to switch to the 6AS7G at one point, I haven't seen any changes published so far.
See above.
Cheers,😉
That project seems like it hasn't advanced one bit over the last few years as they have trouble keeping the 6C33Cs in line.
It's an OTL design based around the circlotron design and although MC decided to switch to the 6AS7G at one point, I haven't seen any changes published so far.
See above.
Cheers,😉
So my great hope it dissipating. Back to the drawing board.
Hugh,
I'll give you a call week after next - completely boked next week.
Hugh,
I'll give you a call week after next - completely boked next week.
Ralf,
I would not rate OTLs as the best thing since sliced bread. Not by a long shot. I've listened to most of them, and they need to use lashes of feedback which destroys much of the tube appeal, IMHO.
They do not generally cope well with the ageing of the tube, and if things go south the threat to the speakers is very real. Furthermore, most take their output tubes to within an inch of their life, and regular, expensive tube replacement is de rigeur. Like electrostatic speakers, they promise much but fall short on delivery.....
Talk week after next; we have much discussion to get through!
Cheers,
Hugh
I would not rate OTLs as the best thing since sliced bread. Not by a long shot. I've listened to most of them, and they need to use lashes of feedback which destroys much of the tube appeal, IMHO.
They do not generally cope well with the ageing of the tube, and if things go south the threat to the speakers is very real. Furthermore, most take their output tubes to within an inch of their life, and regular, expensive tube replacement is de rigeur. Like electrostatic speakers, they promise much but fall short on delivery.....
Talk week after next; we have much discussion to get through!
Cheers,
Hugh
AKSA said:
DVDHack said:
I agree with Hugh re the Pete Millett 813. I've built a differential version of this with 813's (my fave tube) and GM70's. Cracker amps. The uP supply isn't neccessary and a decent linear will do fine.
If you're going for Duntech's, you'll need lots of power. A friend of mine in the US has some of the very large ones and used to sell them, and he uses a big mofo SS amp because it's all that'll drive them properly.
Re: Some problems in your answers.
Konnichiwa,
I am not entierley sure what you are talking about? A Waveguide (horn) remains a Waveguide (horn) no matter if you attach it to the port output of a small reflex box (the way so-called rear-horns work) or to the front of a driver.
However, your definition of "Horn" seems to be "Dual Cone single driver", which is ludicrous. Most speakers build this way are severely flawed and do not operate as "horn" but more as a mistuned TL with corner loading, the really working ones are quite limited in LF extension as they have to fit normal living rooms. This type may dominate "domestic" horns, but is practically never seen in modern Pro-Audio. Of course, the manufacturer of these mistuned transmission lines with corner loading amy still claim them to be horns and even may claim they are the best speakers in the world, just as amplifier manufacturers are free to claim their amplifiers are the best in the world, without any of them having to submit to the burden of proof.
According to the systems actually designed and manufacturerd by Meyer, Community, JBL, Electrovoice, Turbosound and many others exactly that is possible, with Turbosound and Community it usually is 3-Way, Hornloaded for prodigious undistorted SPL with normal bandwidth coverage. So clearly, the RDH needs updating, as does you knowledge.
Which AMT and which Ribbon extends to 100Hz? I am not aware of a single one, unless you count manetic planars, which of course are not ribbons and do not share theiur low distortion, high transient fidelity behaviour, in fact most magnetic planars make moving coil loudspeakers seem VERY LOW Distortion, but maybe that makes for their appeal?
No, I read your notes as a claim your SE Amplifier circuits, Preamp and Driverstage daisychained would produce 0.05% Distortion when driving your EL34/KT88 to full power and asking if my driver stages for the 300B managed the same. I answered truthfully. Now if you are saying you are not getting such results, why first claim them?
I get similar 0.3...0.5% THD for my SE Driver stages and yes, I can get a LOT of Voltage swing with 0.05% THD from my differential, transformer coupled driverstages, but that's another story and not applicable in this context, so I did not bring it up.
You: "And we both know that you do not get 15 - 20V RMS from a 6922."
So, you told the truth then? Note, I did not call you liar, I said you where not getting these resukts in a given context. If you use different circuits, different story.
0.05%? Really. Becuase that was your claim in your original message, arguably with an omission of stating it was PP.
I have not tested recent JJ's, but the Reflektor 6N23 and Tesla E88CC both show the classic 6922 pattern and their curves, with the attendant results.
Let's start easy - electrolytic PSU Capacitors.
As reviewer I get "accomodation" pricing on almost any kind of commercial Gear I like to buy, not that I often buy commercial gear. I am not being paid for writing my reviews by either manufacturer or publisher. And as said, I do not pay for development of transformers with one manufacturer. That's it. I do not commercially modify or sell gear and I do not work at current for any HiFi Company in a saliried or in other terms compensated format, apart from the sated above.
Sure?
Please name ANY true ribbon operating relaibly below around 1KHz.
Good.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
Positron said:
I am not entierley sure what you are talking about? A Waveguide (horn) remains a Waveguide (horn) no matter if you attach it to the port output of a small reflex box (the way so-called rear-horns work) or to the front of a driver.
However, your definition of "Horn" seems to be "Dual Cone single driver", which is ludicrous. Most speakers build this way are severely flawed and do not operate as "horn" but more as a mistuned TL with corner loading, the really working ones are quite limited in LF extension as they have to fit normal living rooms. This type may dominate "domestic" horns, but is practically never seen in modern Pro-Audio. Of course, the manufacturer of these mistuned transmission lines with corner loading amy still claim them to be horns and even may claim they are the best speakers in the world, just as amplifier manufacturers are free to claim their amplifiers are the best in the world, without any of them having to submit to the burden of proof.
Positron said:
According to the systems actually designed and manufacturerd by Meyer, Community, JBL, Electrovoice, Turbosound and many others exactly that is possible, with Turbosound and Community it usually is 3-Way, Hornloaded for prodigious undistorted SPL with normal bandwidth coverage. So clearly, the RDH needs updating, as does you knowledge.
Positron said:
Which AMT and which Ribbon extends to 100Hz? I am not aware of a single one, unless you count manetic planars, which of course are not ribbons and do not share theiur low distortion, high transient fidelity behaviour, in fact most magnetic planars make moving coil loudspeakers seem VERY LOW Distortion, but maybe that makes for their appeal?
Positron said:
No, I read your notes as a claim your SE Amplifier circuits, Preamp and Driverstage daisychained would produce 0.05% Distortion when driving your EL34/KT88 to full power and asking if my driver stages for the 300B managed the same. I answered truthfully. Now if you are saying you are not getting such results, why first claim them?
Positron said:
I get similar 0.3...0.5% THD for my SE Driver stages and yes, I can get a LOT of Voltage swing with 0.05% THD from my differential, transformer coupled driverstages, but that's another story and not applicable in this context, so I did not bring it up.
You: "And we both know that you do not get 15 - 20V RMS from a 6922."
Positron said:
So, you told the truth then? Note, I did not call you liar, I said you where not getting these resukts in a given context. If you use different circuits, different story.
Positron said:
0.05%? Really. Becuase that was your claim in your original message, arguably with an omission of stating it was PP.
Positron said:
I have not tested recent JJ's, but the Reflektor 6N23 and Tesla E88CC both show the classic 6922 pattern and their curves, with the attendant results.
Positron said:
Let's start easy - electrolytic PSU Capacitors.
Positron said:
As reviewer I get "accomodation" pricing on almost any kind of commercial Gear I like to buy, not that I often buy commercial gear. I am not being paid for writing my reviews by either manufacturer or publisher. And as said, I do not pay for development of transformers with one manufacturer. That's it. I do not commercially modify or sell gear and I do not work at current for any HiFi Company in a saliried or in other terms compensated format, apart from the sated above.
Positron said:
Sure?
Positron said:
Please name ANY true ribbon operating relaibly below around 1KHz.
Positron said:
Good.
Sayonara
Let's come clean..
Me: Your entire post is either ridiculous or are you playing games, and to me unethical. Let's take a look.
You: "I am not entierley sure what you are talking about? A Waveguide (horn) remains a Waveguide (horn) no matter if you attach it to the port output of a small reflex box (the way so-called rear-horns work) or to the front of a driver.
However, your definition of "Horn" seems to be "Dual Cone single driver", which is ludicrous. ."
Me: If you have the speaker rear loaded in a "chamber" it still has problems with the chamber. Dual horns is not the same as dual cone single driver. Try reading my post again and get it right this time.
Me: "Secondly, according to the Radiotron Designers Handbook, "It is impossible to design a horn loudspeaker that covers a wide frequency band and is simultaneously free from non-linear distortion."
You: "According to the systems actually designed and manufacturerd by Meyer, Community, JBL, Electrovoice, Turbosound and many others exactly that is possible,"
Me: One horn for the entire bandwidth? Well, so they overcame physics?
You: " with Turbosound and Community it usually is 3-Way, Hornloaded for prodigious undistorted SPL with normal bandwidth coverage. So clearly, the RDH needs updating, as does you knowledge.""
Me: So now it is a three way? I thought the subject was a single driver horn covering the entire bandwidth?
Me: "Me: "but you failed to mention ribbons and air motion transformers."
You: "I have no problems with these per se, except they are tweeters, not speakers."
Me: Really, they go down to 100hz and they are tweeters? That is the best answer you can give?
You: "Which AMT and which Ribbon extends to 100Hz? I am not aware of a single one, unless you count manetic planars, which of course are not ribbons and do not share theiur low distortion, high transient fidelity behaviour, in fact most magnetic planars make moving coil loudspeakers seem VERY LOW Distortion, but maybe that makes for their appeal?"
Me: Try Audia. I think the one I heard went to 600hz. Sounds like you need to catch up on things.
You: "No, I read your notes as a claim your SE Amplifier circuits, Preamp and Driverstage daisychained would produce 0.05% Distortion when driving your EL34/KT88 to full power and asking if my driver stages for the 300B managed the same. I answered truthfully. Now if you are saying you are not getting such results, why first claim them?"
Me: I noticed you stated this without quoting me. Nice try but no cigar. (Check the quote he uses below where I stated I didn't mention which amp.) Are we playing games again by confusion? I only said I have a preamp and driver stage with .05% at full output power, you made an incorrect assumption my friend.
You: "I get similar 0.3...0.5% THD for my SE Driver stages and yes, I can get a LOT of Voltage swing with 0.05% THD from my differential, transformer coupled driverstages, but that's another story and not applicable in this context, so I did not bring it up.
You: "And we both know that you do not get 15 - 20V RMS from a 6922."
Me: Yes, but you also used a transformer didn't you. Two stages I see. And there are bandwidth and phase problems. Try checking any audio transformer for this. You should have known this, expert.
You: "So, you told the truth then? Note, I did not call you liar, I said you where not getting these resukts in a given context. If you use different circuits, different story."
Me: My own post, which you yourself posted stated, I didn't state which amp I was using. So you assumed, or did you try to confuse my comment?
Me: "A second indication of how little you know about designing. I can easily get 20v rms out of a 6922 with fairly small amounts of distortion,"
You: "0.05%? Really. Becuase that was your claim in your original message, arguably with an omission of stating it was PP."
Me: Trying to combine issues are we? I stated the distortion was small, not claiming .05% in this configuration. You just continue confusing the issues and what was said.
Me: "Again not knowing what you are talking about. Some newer 6922s have virtually no higher order distortions."
You: "I have not tested recent JJ's, but the Reflektor 6N23 and Tesla E88CC both show the classic 6922 pattern and their curves, with the attendant results."
Me: Now finally some truth is coming out. So you made a general statement, defaming my 6922s and by implication my design credentials and without even doing a simple test.
Really honest of you. And besides that, you haven't mentioned how high the harmonics go. I could easily comment on 300bs, 2a3s etc. too. Only 2nd harmonic distorton(?), and high at that. PPs don't have that kind of distortion.
You: "Let's start easy - electrolytic PSU Capacitors."
Me: And where did you get that gem? Do I run electrolytics in the circuit path? I have repeatedly posted I don't like them in the circuit path in many chat sites, including this one. And my white papers clearly show they have DA and DF problems.
I suggest others read my white papers and determine you own conclusions, if this gent is telling the truth or whether he is speading bad information. http://www.sasaudiolabs.com/theory1a.htm
You: "As reviewer I get "accomodation" pricing on almost any kind of commercial Gear I like to buy, not that I often buy commercial gear. I am not being paid for writing my reviews by either manufacturer or publisher. And as said, I do not pay for development of transformers with one manufacturer. That's it. I do not commercially modify or sell gear and I do not work at current for any HiFi Company in a saliried or in other terms compensated format, apart from the sated above."
Me: So you get compensation from a transformer manufactuer and reduced prices for equipment. Yet you are a reviewer. Seems to me like you are taking bribes. I can't see any good ethics in such an arrangement.
Me: "It is obvious you know some general knowledge, but there is a whole other level that you seem oblivous too. Not knowing some answers to some critical questions, the cheap attacks exposed that."
You: "Sure?"
Me: I am sure my friend. You seem to know some basics, but your sensely misquotes, inuendos, seemingly lack of ethics, lack of understanding designs clearly shows me you don't know that much.
If your designs were really that good, you would have marketed them by now.
Being able to simply debate doesn't make it either.
I have caught others who pretend to be just average posters but who don't come out and tell they are receiving compensation until explicitly asked too. Of course you didn't have much choice did you.
You: "Please name ANY true ribbon operating relaibly below around 1KHz."
Me: Audia. They in house man them. They go at least to 600hz to 26khz and sound great.
Me: Your entire post is either ridiculous or are you playing games, and to me unethical. Let's take a look.
You: "I am not entierley sure what you are talking about? A Waveguide (horn) remains a Waveguide (horn) no matter if you attach it to the port output of a small reflex box (the way so-called rear-horns work) or to the front of a driver.
However, your definition of "Horn" seems to be "Dual Cone single driver", which is ludicrous. ."
Me: If you have the speaker rear loaded in a "chamber" it still has problems with the chamber. Dual horns is not the same as dual cone single driver. Try reading my post again and get it right this time.
Me: "Secondly, according to the Radiotron Designers Handbook, "It is impossible to design a horn loudspeaker that covers a wide frequency band and is simultaneously free from non-linear distortion."
You: "According to the systems actually designed and manufacturerd by Meyer, Community, JBL, Electrovoice, Turbosound and many others exactly that is possible,"
Me: One horn for the entire bandwidth? Well, so they overcame physics?
You: " with Turbosound and Community it usually is 3-Way, Hornloaded for prodigious undistorted SPL with normal bandwidth coverage. So clearly, the RDH needs updating, as does you knowledge.""
Me: So now it is a three way? I thought the subject was a single driver horn covering the entire bandwidth?
Me: "Me: "but you failed to mention ribbons and air motion transformers."
You: "I have no problems with these per se, except they are tweeters, not speakers."
Me: Really, they go down to 100hz and they are tweeters? That is the best answer you can give?
You: "Which AMT and which Ribbon extends to 100Hz? I am not aware of a single one, unless you count manetic planars, which of course are not ribbons and do not share theiur low distortion, high transient fidelity behaviour, in fact most magnetic planars make moving coil loudspeakers seem VERY LOW Distortion, but maybe that makes for their appeal?"
Me: Try Audia. I think the one I heard went to 600hz. Sounds like you need to catch up on things.
You: "No, I read your notes as a claim your SE Amplifier circuits, Preamp and Driverstage daisychained would produce 0.05% Distortion when driving your EL34/KT88 to full power and asking if my driver stages for the 300B managed the same. I answered truthfully. Now if you are saying you are not getting such results, why first claim them?"
Me: I noticed you stated this without quoting me. Nice try but no cigar. (Check the quote he uses below where I stated I didn't mention which amp.) Are we playing games again by confusion? I only said I have a preamp and driver stage with .05% at full output power, you made an incorrect assumption my friend.
You: "I get similar 0.3...0.5% THD for my SE Driver stages and yes, I can get a LOT of Voltage swing with 0.05% THD from my differential, transformer coupled driverstages, but that's another story and not applicable in this context, so I did not bring it up.
You: "And we both know that you do not get 15 - 20V RMS from a 6922."
Me: Yes, but you also used a transformer didn't you. Two stages I see. And there are bandwidth and phase problems. Try checking any audio transformer for this. You should have known this, expert.
You: "So, you told the truth then? Note, I did not call you liar, I said you where not getting these resukts in a given context. If you use different circuits, different story."
Me: My own post, which you yourself posted stated, I didn't state which amp I was using. So you assumed, or did you try to confuse my comment?
Me: "A second indication of how little you know about designing. I can easily get 20v rms out of a 6922 with fairly small amounts of distortion,"
You: "0.05%? Really. Becuase that was your claim in your original message, arguably with an omission of stating it was PP."
Me: Trying to combine issues are we? I stated the distortion was small, not claiming .05% in this configuration. You just continue confusing the issues and what was said.
Me: "Again not knowing what you are talking about. Some newer 6922s have virtually no higher order distortions."
You: "I have not tested recent JJ's, but the Reflektor 6N23 and Tesla E88CC both show the classic 6922 pattern and their curves, with the attendant results."
Me: Now finally some truth is coming out. So you made a general statement, defaming my 6922s and by implication my design credentials and without even doing a simple test.
Really honest of you. And besides that, you haven't mentioned how high the harmonics go. I could easily comment on 300bs, 2a3s etc. too. Only 2nd harmonic distorton(?), and high at that. PPs don't have that kind of distortion.
You: "Let's start easy - electrolytic PSU Capacitors."
Me: And where did you get that gem? Do I run electrolytics in the circuit path? I have repeatedly posted I don't like them in the circuit path in many chat sites, including this one. And my white papers clearly show they have DA and DF problems.
I suggest others read my white papers and determine you own conclusions, if this gent is telling the truth or whether he is speading bad information. http://www.sasaudiolabs.com/theory1a.htm
You: "As reviewer I get "accomodation" pricing on almost any kind of commercial Gear I like to buy, not that I often buy commercial gear. I am not being paid for writing my reviews by either manufacturer or publisher. And as said, I do not pay for development of transformers with one manufacturer. That's it. I do not commercially modify or sell gear and I do not work at current for any HiFi Company in a saliried or in other terms compensated format, apart from the sated above."
Me: So you get compensation from a transformer manufactuer and reduced prices for equipment. Yet you are a reviewer. Seems to me like you are taking bribes. I can't see any good ethics in such an arrangement.
Me: "It is obvious you know some general knowledge, but there is a whole other level that you seem oblivous too. Not knowing some answers to some critical questions, the cheap attacks exposed that."
You: "Sure?"
Me: I am sure my friend. You seem to know some basics, but your sensely misquotes, inuendos, seemingly lack of ethics, lack of understanding designs clearly shows me you don't know that much.
If your designs were really that good, you would have marketed them by now.
Being able to simply debate doesn't make it either.
I have caught others who pretend to be just average posters but who don't come out and tell they are receiving compensation until explicitly asked too. Of course you didn't have much choice did you.
You: "Please name ANY true ribbon operating relaibly below around 1KHz."
Me: Audia. They in house man them. They go at least to 600hz to 26khz and sound great.
Positron, KYW, please cut out the personal sniping. The technical part of the discussion is interesting, but it is diminished by the shin-kicks.
Konnichiwa,
Please excuse me. Mr. Positron makes and modifes his statemenst as he likes and leaves them loose and open enough that he can claim them to have been anything he likes, if I try to nail him down on ANY point he cahnges his tack to "taht's not what I said" about very real, clearly stated technical issues and claims I am insulting him when I do insist. I am NOT getting personal, I merely point out the incoinsistencies or outright false statements. Is this sniping?
Sayonara
SY said:
Positron, KYW, please cut out the personal sniping. The technical part of the discussion is interesting, but it is diminished by the shin-kicks.
Please excuse me. Mr. Positron makes and modifes his statemenst as he likes and leaves them loose and open enough that he can claim them to have been anything he likes, if I try to nail him down on ANY point he cahnges his tack to "taht's not what I said" about very real, clearly stated technical issues and claims I am insulting him when I do insist. I am NOT getting personal, I merely point out the incoinsistencies or outright false statements. Is this sniping?
Sayonara
Re: Let's come clean..
Konnichiwa,
I will keep myself to the bare limit ofthe most ridiculous statements, as the moderator already thinks I am being unethical. So:
I never, anywhere stated anything about single driver or anything in the like being the subject. In fact, i thought the subject was Amplifiers and by extension and in general speakers.
There does not seem to be a company called "Audia", at least I cannot find them. Maybe you are talking about Radia Linesource drivers? They are not ribbons.
I also know Aurum Cantus and Raven, their Ribbons are claimed to be usable to 500Hz (Raven R3), however I have noticed that they require extremely steep crossover slopes > 4th Order to operate here, making their use that low very difficult, meaning practically they are usually not usable below 1KHz.
But even with 500Hz admitted as possible, we are sill 2 Octaves plus from your 100Hz figures and barely 1 Octave from my 1KHz and then practical conerns actually tend to illustrate my 1KHz figure as ROUGH GUIDE to the lowest point.
But obviously I am the one who has to catch up.... Right.
I AM NOT your friend.
You made the 0.05% Distortion statement in a discussion about Single Ended Amplifiers, where the context would makje this claim one applying to such circuits.
Interestingly, I HAVE designed such an SE driverstage (5842 loaded by a 5687 Cascode follower and J-Fet CCS as "Mu Follower", around 0.05% THD @ 50V RMS into 100k), but did not feel the need to claim such perfomance, while you where refering to a circuit completely out of context.
Hmmm. A transformer is a "stage"? Then so is a coupling capacitor. And a resistor.
Hmmm. These problems depend upon your implementation and the transformers used.
My PP Amplifier with Input, interstage and Output transformer has a bandwidth that is almost entierly determined by the Output Transformer and has -3db Points beyond 10Hz & 100KHz (generator limits). So I do not see any phaseproblems, assuming you use sufficiently high quality transformers.
That aside, I noted that Push-Pull driverstages where not part of the threads topic as such and hence I noted I had refrained from bringing in such as example, unlike you, and I clearly stated the conditions under which such performance was obtained.
I have actually done so. The Input transformer is an off the shelf Pro-Audio Model with accurate secondary balance and flat response (<-0.5db) to 46KHz.
The interstage transformer has an even more extended High Frequency response, being derived from a model with lower level handling but a response of > 100Kz flat. On measurement the -0.5db point was around 65KHz.... Some other low level transformers I have access to offer high level handling and a bandwidth to above 3MHz.
The output transformers I can readily find roll off much earlier than either Interstage and Input Transformer.
Of course, it is a good thing that your amplifiers avoid the use of output transformers, given their evil behaviour.
I considered the context being Single Ended Valve amplifiers, that such circuits where being discussed.
If we merely discuss any sort of circuit I can easily find any number, Valve or Solid State, that can produce 20V RMS with < 0.05% THD. But that's kinda like saying "There is this great brand XXXX" when the rest are discussing the quality of single malt whiskey and where brand XXXX turns out to be orange juice.
Okay, one last time, did you, in the context of discussing Single Ended Amplifier circuits state that you are:
"getting 0.05% total distortion from All the previous stages (no cancelling distortion stages allowed) at max drive for full output of a 300b amp? (I include my preamp and non output stages of my amps.)"
If so, the context suggested single ended stages and I pointed out that I considered these numbers to be unrealistic for such. Where is my "confusion" of what you said?
Hmmm. I could have long have taken issue with your constant defamation of MY qualification, experience etc.
I merely state that the common 6922 tends to have fairly high distortion and comparably (compared to other triodes) higher levels of upper harmonics.
If you have 6922's that do not behave like most 6922 Valves then I would argue they should not be called 6922 (as they would have different anode curves) and secondly I would like to see an explicit statement of the Valve Type, Conditions and Results that can be verified independently.
Do you use Electrolytic Capcitors in the Powersupply ( I don't BTW)?
If so they INVARIABLY are in the signal current loop and add their distortions of variuous kinds to the signal.
No, I get Transformers developed without paying for the development on the conditions that said transformers can be sold by the manufacturer to the general public or OEM's. That is NOT compensation in the sense you imply, but I felt it was a benefit I should state, for completeness.
Anyone in the industry (Manufacturer, Dealer, Reviewer etc.) will usually get "Industry accomodation" prices if they ask, meaning usually dealers cost, even you yourself would if you asked.
Do you procure any income or compensation or discounts from your audio related activities?
The fact that reviewers usually are paying dealers cost to manufacturers/distributors if they buy (by then used) review samples is quite widely know and is practiced in the entire industry.
As said, I rarely take advantage of such offers, in fact in my current system only the Turntable and one Tonearm where obtained such, the rest is my own stuff (usually DIY) or current review sample loans).
You may question the ethics of such arrangements, but they are common in general with reviewers and not only in Audio. How many of the music reviewers do you think buy the CD's they review or indeed the equipement they play them on?
Why? Do you think everyones dreamjob is to run a High End Audio company?
I actually have a real dayjob, which I like and which I prefer at this point in time. And I do not feel like selling my designs to others, excepting those that I give away on the condition of charity contributions being made (no compensation to me directly).
So, where does that leave that on the topic?
You state DHT's cannot sound good (compared to even a basic KT88 Amp) and the only good sounding speakers are low efficiency Cone/Dome Speakers and Ribbons? And the best amplifiers in the world are made by you?
Is that a fair summary of your point or am I misunderstanding you?
If I am misunderstanding you, maybe you would like to state specifically and in detail your point so we all get it clearly and accuratly, if I understood you correct I must respectfully disagree with your statements and consider them 1) untrue and 2) prejudiced.
I will leave things at that, as in either case I do not feel much can be gained from any further discussion. I am sure the discerning reader can draw his or her own conclusions, just as I have.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
I will keep myself to the bare limit ofthe most ridiculous statements, as the moderator already thinks I am being unethical. So:
Positron said:
I never, anywhere stated anything about single driver or anything in the like being the subject. In fact, i thought the subject was Amplifiers and by extension and in general speakers.
Positron said:
There does not seem to be a company called "Audia", at least I cannot find them. Maybe you are talking about Radia Linesource drivers? They are not ribbons.
I also know Aurum Cantus and Raven, their Ribbons are claimed to be usable to 500Hz (Raven R3), however I have noticed that they require extremely steep crossover slopes > 4th Order to operate here, making their use that low very difficult, meaning practically they are usually not usable below 1KHz.
But even with 500Hz admitted as possible, we are sill 2 Octaves plus from your 100Hz figures and barely 1 Octave from my 1KHz and then practical conerns actually tend to illustrate my 1KHz figure as ROUGH GUIDE to the lowest point.
But obviously I am the one who has to catch up.... Right.
Positron said:
I AM NOT your friend.
You made the 0.05% Distortion statement in a discussion about Single Ended Amplifiers, where the context would makje this claim one applying to such circuits.
Interestingly, I HAVE designed such an SE driverstage (5842 loaded by a 5687 Cascode follower and J-Fet CCS as "Mu Follower", around 0.05% THD @ 50V RMS into 100k), but did not feel the need to claim such perfomance, while you where refering to a circuit completely out of context.
Positron said:
Hmmm. A transformer is a "stage"? Then so is a coupling capacitor. And a resistor.
Positron said:
Hmmm. These problems depend upon your implementation and the transformers used.
My PP Amplifier with Input, interstage and Output transformer has a bandwidth that is almost entierly determined by the Output Transformer and has -3db Points beyond 10Hz & 100KHz (generator limits). So I do not see any phaseproblems, assuming you use sufficiently high quality transformers.
That aside, I noted that Push-Pull driverstages where not part of the threads topic as such and hence I noted I had refrained from bringing in such as example, unlike you, and I clearly stated the conditions under which such performance was obtained.
Positron said:
I have actually done so. The Input transformer is an off the shelf Pro-Audio Model with accurate secondary balance and flat response (<-0.5db) to 46KHz.
The interstage transformer has an even more extended High Frequency response, being derived from a model with lower level handling but a response of > 100Kz flat. On measurement the -0.5db point was around 65KHz.... Some other low level transformers I have access to offer high level handling and a bandwidth to above 3MHz.
The output transformers I can readily find roll off much earlier than either Interstage and Input Transformer.
Of course, it is a good thing that your amplifiers avoid the use of output transformers, given their evil behaviour.
Positron said:
I considered the context being Single Ended Valve amplifiers, that such circuits where being discussed.
If we merely discuss any sort of circuit I can easily find any number, Valve or Solid State, that can produce 20V RMS with < 0.05% THD. But that's kinda like saying "There is this great brand XXXX" when the rest are discussing the quality of single malt whiskey and where brand XXXX turns out to be orange juice.
Positron said:
Okay, one last time, did you, in the context of discussing Single Ended Amplifier circuits state that you are:
"getting 0.05% total distortion from All the previous stages (no cancelling distortion stages allowed) at max drive for full output of a 300b amp? (I include my preamp and non output stages of my amps.)"
If so, the context suggested single ended stages and I pointed out that I considered these numbers to be unrealistic for such. Where is my "confusion" of what you said?
Positron said:
Hmmm. I could have long have taken issue with your constant defamation of MY qualification, experience etc.
I merely state that the common 6922 tends to have fairly high distortion and comparably (compared to other triodes) higher levels of upper harmonics.
If you have 6922's that do not behave like most 6922 Valves then I would argue they should not be called 6922 (as they would have different anode curves) and secondly I would like to see an explicit statement of the Valve Type, Conditions and Results that can be verified independently.
Positron said:
Do you use Electrolytic Capcitors in the Powersupply ( I don't BTW)?
If so they INVARIABLY are in the signal current loop and add their distortions of variuous kinds to the signal.
Positron said:
No, I get Transformers developed without paying for the development on the conditions that said transformers can be sold by the manufacturer to the general public or OEM's. That is NOT compensation in the sense you imply, but I felt it was a benefit I should state, for completeness.
Positron said:
Anyone in the industry (Manufacturer, Dealer, Reviewer etc.) will usually get "Industry accomodation" prices if they ask, meaning usually dealers cost, even you yourself would if you asked.
Do you procure any income or compensation or discounts from your audio related activities?
Positron said:
The fact that reviewers usually are paying dealers cost to manufacturers/distributors if they buy (by then used) review samples is quite widely know and is practiced in the entire industry.
As said, I rarely take advantage of such offers, in fact in my current system only the Turntable and one Tonearm where obtained such, the rest is my own stuff (usually DIY) or current review sample loans).
You may question the ethics of such arrangements, but they are common in general with reviewers and not only in Audio. How many of the music reviewers do you think buy the CD's they review or indeed the equipement they play them on?
Positron said:
Why? Do you think everyones dreamjob is to run a High End Audio company?
I actually have a real dayjob, which I like and which I prefer at this point in time. And I do not feel like selling my designs to others, excepting those that I give away on the condition of charity contributions being made (no compensation to me directly).
So, where does that leave that on the topic?
You state DHT's cannot sound good (compared to even a basic KT88 Amp) and the only good sounding speakers are low efficiency Cone/Dome Speakers and Ribbons? And the best amplifiers in the world are made by you?
Is that a fair summary of your point or am I misunderstanding you?
If I am misunderstanding you, maybe you would like to state specifically and in detail your point so we all get it clearly and accuratly, if I understood you correct I must respectfully disagree with your statements and consider them 1) untrue and 2) prejudiced.
I will leave things at that, as in either case I do not feel much can be gained from any further discussion. I am sure the discerning reader can draw his or her own conclusions, just as I have.
Sayonara
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