@hfxrzw: Alright - this Monday!
Before we can get this going - I had raised a question earlier in the 'other' thread but had received no reply so far:
I would like to go for the RF pool offering, either Isola I-TERA at pooling prices or Rogers 4000 series non-pooled (need to further get into the details). I would prefer Rogers 4000, recommended by Rogers for power amplifiers here with interesting additional information here.
Does anyone have any experience with these RF PCBs (Isola/Rogers)? Do they make sense here - overkill, useful, nonsense, ideal?
Before we can get this going - I had raised a question earlier in the 'other' thread but had received no reply so far:
I would like to go for the RF pool offering, either Isola I-TERA at pooling prices or Rogers 4000 series non-pooled (need to further get into the details). I would prefer Rogers 4000, recommended by Rogers for power amplifiers here with interesting additional information here.
Does anyone have any experience with these RF PCBs (Isola/Rogers)? Do they make sense here - overkill, useful, nonsense, ideal?
If we are getting >50 PCBs made (which it looks like) then no advantage to pooling. As FR4 is good up to 2GHz if you know and control the lay up really no need to go for fancy pcb dielectric despite PTFE boards looking all milspec 🙂
Just order them in standard substrate, no need for anything fancy, its a simple circuit, let's keep it cost effective. That's all everyone wants.
Bertel, I might have mentioned this earlier, but I did get some good pricing from a local UK-based company. They specialise in low-production PCBs and can offer assembly too.
Quick Circuits | PCB Manufacture & Assembly
For those that are very much cost-concious, it might be worth getting a few quotes (also from your existing provider) for
1. Bare board, no components
2. Board with all holes drilled, but only SMDs fixed
3. Board fully assembled with SMDs and PTH components.
The reason I suggest this is that the assembly line, at least for Quick circuits, is quite costly when it comes to PTH as it's a far more manual process. Maybe other labs can provide pick and place and assembly for PTH components, I don't know.
I already have a relationship with them and happy to ask for a quote based on 50-100 units. Let me know.
Quick Circuits | PCB Manufacture & Assembly
For those that are very much cost-concious, it might be worth getting a few quotes (also from your existing provider) for
1. Bare board, no components
2. Board with all holes drilled, but only SMDs fixed
3. Board fully assembled with SMDs and PTH components.
The reason I suggest this is that the assembly line, at least for Quick circuits, is quite costly when it comes to PTH as it's a far more manual process. Maybe other labs can provide pick and place and assembly for PTH components, I don't know.
I already have a relationship with them and happy to ask for a quote based on 50-100 units. Let me know.
Hi, in order to progress this group buy I propose the following.
That we agree to purchase the Std. PCB's from Euro Circuits and agree at a purchase cost of 8.5 Euros per board plus handling and postage to the end user.
Ordering from Euro Circuits has been mentioned as a cost of 5 Euro's but this is plus VAT and shipping to the group buyer.
The human condition being what is shows that some of the 'interested parties' (90 PCB's so far) will drop out (5 have left so far) forget to pay or run off screaming 'profiteering'
Of course it is not they who may be left with 50/60 Euros worth of unsold boards....
I suggest we use column G in the spread sheet to indicate a more fixed interest along these lines.
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx...=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AD67dr03ABOz4GQ
Regards
Paul.
That we agree to purchase the Std. PCB's from Euro Circuits and agree at a purchase cost of 8.5 Euros per board plus handling and postage to the end user.
Ordering from Euro Circuits has been mentioned as a cost of 5 Euro's but this is plus VAT and shipping to the group buyer.
The human condition being what is shows that some of the 'interested parties' (90 PCB's so far) will drop out (5 have left so far) forget to pay or run off screaming 'profiteering'
Of course it is not they who may be left with 50/60 Euros worth of unsold boards....
I suggest we use column G in the spread sheet to indicate a more fixed interest along these lines.
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx...=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AD67dr03ABOz4GQ
Regards
Paul.
Shame this one seems to be going west. Did the OP think it was going to be a nice little earner?
What on earth made you think that? Group Buys are thankless at the best of time without snide comments on the side.
The Facts
The origional price quoted per PCB was 17.25 Euros.
Jan Didden who arranged an origional production run of 1000 boards for his magazine Linear Audio posted that Euro Circuits would charge 5 Euros per PCB for a run of 50 boards.
This figure though excluded VAT and delivery to the end user,and Euro Circuits also had done the first run so possibly have templates already prepared. So the realistic figure from Euro Circuits I estimate to be around 6.5 Euro.
Understandably this significant difference in cost has caused some confusion/mistrust from the off.
Some people have seen the 5 Euro board price,coupled that with the increased interest and expect the boards to cost less than 5 euros.
(Ask Euro Circuits how much they will charge to produce one board for them and let us know their answer...)
I think my figure of 8.5 Euro per PCB is realistic given my concerns 2 posts above.
I have been running my own business for over 30 years so I have some insight into these things.
Conclusion
There are many people (62 for PCB's) wishing to build this project.
It would be a shame if it fizzled out due to a lack of focus.
Addendum
It should be remembered that DIY audio should be a process of both learning and fun.
Bruno Putzey has put much thought and time into this, and given that this design if implemented commercially might cost in excess of £1K.
Should we be quibbling over a few Euros.
The origional price quoted per PCB was 17.25 Euros.
Jan Didden who arranged an origional production run of 1000 boards for his magazine Linear Audio posted that Euro Circuits would charge 5 Euros per PCB for a run of 50 boards.
This figure though excluded VAT and delivery to the end user,and Euro Circuits also had done the first run so possibly have templates already prepared. So the realistic figure from Euro Circuits I estimate to be around 6.5 Euro.
Understandably this significant difference in cost has caused some confusion/mistrust from the off.
Some people have seen the 5 Euro board price,coupled that with the increased interest and expect the boards to cost less than 5 euros.
(Ask Euro Circuits how much they will charge to produce one board for them and let us know their answer...)
I think my figure of 8.5 Euro per PCB is realistic given my concerns 2 posts above.
I have been running my own business for over 30 years so I have some insight into these things.
Conclusion
There are many people (62 for PCB's) wishing to build this project.
It would be a shame if it fizzled out due to a lack of focus.
Addendum
It should be remembered that DIY audio should be a process of both learning and fun.
Bruno Putzey has put much thought and time into this, and given that this design if implemented commercially might cost in excess of £1K.
Should we be quibbling over a few Euros.
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Well MrDog, you missed out a couple of things
1) the 17.25 was from the contract manufacturer for IMO overspecced boards (gold flash amongst other things)
2) This was mentioned to Bertel who IS looking at other options
3) The correct protocol is not to derail the organiser unless he throws in the towel
4) No real evidence of mistrust before today, just a little frustration in the time taken. But if you have ever organised a GB whilst having a job and staying married you will understand it takes time.
5) Gerbers are open sourced if you need a few for yourself.
1) the 17.25 was from the contract manufacturer for IMO overspecced boards (gold flash amongst other things)
2) This was mentioned to Bertel who IS looking at other options
3) The correct protocol is not to derail the organiser unless he throws in the towel
4) No real evidence of mistrust before today, just a little frustration in the time taken. But if you have ever organised a GB whilst having a job and staying married you will understand it takes time.
5) Gerbers are open sourced if you need a few for yourself.
My intention is not to derail the process but to progress it.
If it has been seen otherwise I apologise.
If it has been seen otherwise I apologise.
Sorry if I misread you. If we all push the right way we can help Bertel move forwards. I suspect the contract manufacture part is the thing that is confusing the issue here. But I cannot be sure.
We can understand any issues Bertel - who started this - faces. However I'm confused as to why so many distractions instead taking Jan's help if needed in final supplier and price. However we also understand the pain the person running group buy. So we are trying to make the list to grow by decisions instead of interest dwindle by the time decisions are made. PCB design is the major time consuming part in GB ( that I have seen in DIYAUDIO GBs) not fixing a supplier - You can see teabag making many GB's - he might be able to help???
There is always a problem running anything by committee, as each personality wishes to stamp his own agenda - fact of life.
Maybe there is a desire for 2 production runs of the PCB, one Mil Spec gold flashed and one of a std production run ?.
Maybe we could use the spreadsheet to indicate our choice, column G for std. spec.at 8.5 Eur.
and Column H for Mil Spec at 17.5 Eur.
Maybe this would help Bertel ?
I'll post my choice.
Maybe there is a desire for 2 production runs of the PCB, one Mil Spec gold flashed and one of a std production run ?.
Maybe we could use the spreadsheet to indicate our choice, column G for std. spec.at 8.5 Eur.
and Column H for Mil Spec at 17.5 Eur.
Maybe this would help Bertel ?
I'll post my choice.
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added 1 PCB
I assume I can use this as a pre/vol. control for a planned balanced pass (funny...) F6
I assume I can use this as a pre/vol. control for a planned balanced pass (funny...) F6
Thanks gents for your support and understanding.
Alright, I suppose it is correct to assume that everyone in this Group Buy is fine with FR4 boards to start with. (I will not follow the initial 'over the top quote' and go with EuroCircuit instead as discussed before, and look into completely built PCBs in a second step after the bare PCBs have been made and delivered).
@tfboy: Many thanks for bringing up Quick Circuits as an alternative! Can you please ask them for a quote? (Jan has the Gerbers online here if you don't have them yet)
@jan.didden: Can you please confirm the actual size of the PCB? I get 22.2"x7.8" (564mm x 198mm) but am pretty sure this is waaayyy too big. This obviously has an influence on price so need to make sure to be correct here.
Alright, I suppose it is correct to assume that everyone in this Group Buy is fine with FR4 boards to start with. (I will not follow the initial 'over the top quote' and go with EuroCircuit instead as discussed before, and look into completely built PCBs in a second step after the bare PCBs have been made and delivered).
@tfboy: Many thanks for bringing up Quick Circuits as an alternative! Can you please ask them for a quote? (Jan has the Gerbers online here if you don't have them yet)
@jan.didden: Can you please confirm the actual size of the PCB? I get 22.2"x7.8" (564mm x 198mm) but am pretty sure this is waaayyy too big. This obviously has an influence on price so need to make sure to be correct here.
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