Thanks, I had that paper too on file, I have to read it properly.. ok the integration time might be longer, but still, the transient quality of the speaker looks to be one of the key element into play.. How to keep this transient as good as it can get in a closed/vented box, and in a room if a dipole is used.. maybe that's the real issue?
Puppet, what you describe reminds me of my earlier dipoles.. something is not right, it should stay clear when you crank it up..
Yes, exactly, thank you.
I'll leave Stig to argue with himself. 😉
one major point that is not taken into account on these studies is the spectral content of the reflexions. Are they similar with the main source or different? A typical box speaker will exhibit strong spectral shifts off axis. so will the reflexions..
Reflexions might after all not be the evil, have a look, from minute 6, and min 47 to 49.
SIEGFRIED LINKWITZ at BURNING AMP FESTIVAL 2010 - YouTube
Reflexions might after all not be the evil, have a look, from minute 6, and min 47 to 49.
SIEGFRIED LINKWITZ at BURNING AMP FESTIVAL 2010 - YouTube
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You missed my point. I'm used to listen i a near-anechoic room. And every time I listen in a different room I hear what do room does to the sound.
I dont hear early reflections, as everyone else, but I do hear how hey change the listening experience.
Stig Erik,
would you mind expanding a little bit on your experience? How do they change the sound? I will try tonight to reverse my room setup and put all the absorbing panels right behind the speakers instead of the rear wall.. I don't have enough of them to get 100% coverage but let's see what difference it makes.
thanks!
would you mind expanding a little bit on your experience? How do they change the sound? I will try tonight to reverse my room setup and put all the absorbing panels right behind the speakers instead of the rear wall.. I don't have enough of them to get 100% coverage but let's see what difference it makes.
thanks!
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Ok, so I reversed the setup and put 6 stacked BBC absorbers right behind the dipoles, listening same spot, 2m from tweeters, 45° tilt.
It is a completely different experience, and even being far from an anechoic situation you can clearly hear the difference, one of the most envolving I ever had. It is essentially more a fact of listening right into the recording, with an immense precision and impact, and less feeling of the stage being into the room.. Works beautifully for most recordings, but SL test disc did not leave a great impression, with dummy head type microphone placement, the AS is much better in a semi reverberant setup.
Which one is more realistic? I have to listen more and see what I prefer..
One point: even with this setup Watson like speakers improved dramatically the AS and the clarity, it give a way more enjoyable and realistic experience.
It is a completely different experience, and even being far from an anechoic situation you can clearly hear the difference, one of the most envolving I ever had. It is essentially more a fact of listening right into the recording, with an immense precision and impact, and less feeling of the stage being into the room.. Works beautifully for most recordings, but SL test disc did not leave a great impression, with dummy head type microphone placement, the AS is much better in a semi reverberant setup.
Which one is more realistic? I have to listen more and see what I prefer..
One point: even with this setup Watson like speakers improved dramatically the AS and the clarity, it give a way more enjoyable and realistic experience.
You described it pretty good yourself.
Room reflections is almost like pouring a thick fat gravy over everything. It makes everything sound more like the same, call it a "signature" that is always there.
What you loose is resolution, clarity, dynamics, stereo image and tonal balance. In my opinion what you gain is nothing.
Griesinger suggests a demo to hear the adaptation of coloration:
www.davidgriesinger.com/binaural_hearing.ppt
Also Sean Olive states in his dissertation:
All this seems to be totally opposite what you describe. According to literature, either you're not an experieced listener or have gone totally overboard 😛
One has to ask why you simply don't use headphones ? 😀
And, what is the point going through the trouble of dipoles in an anechoic room ? Any speaker could do since only direct sound will be there. Oh yes, box colourations ! 😀 Finally on topic again... 😉
- Elias
You gain that the music sounds as if the musicians are playing in your room, rather than as if you are listening in the recording studio with them.
I'd have to agree with Bigun's theory in post #461
I'm clearly one of the latter of his theory while you the former.
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For me that is not a gain. I dont think music sounds good in a regular living room. It's far from the preferred acoustics for any style of music. I want to be in the acoustics of the recording (even if it's artificial). That requires taking my own listening room out of the equation.
I dont like headphones either by the way, the stereo image is nothing like what a good speaker setup sounds like. You loose the depth, and the soundstage is inside your head.
I dont like headphones either by the way, the stereo image is nothing like what a good speaker setup sounds like. You loose the depth, and the soundstage is inside your head.
... and this is what I was driving at. Finding the compromise between the two. I'd like to think that dipoles can be constructed such that any room can work with them. I think that controlling the reflection(s) ... in my case, at the source ... goes a long way toward that goal.
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Depends on what you want 🙂
Anechoric listening sure has all resolution one wants but it sounds too focused too Me, it calls attention to itself. With the omnis it's much more subtle and I can instead enjoy it like background music, it just blends into the room in a nice way.
Anechoric listening sure has all resolution one wants but it sounds too focused too Me, it calls attention to itself. With the omnis it's much more subtle and I can instead enjoy it like background music, it just blends into the room in a nice way.
I see what you mean. For casual background music, I prefer to lay on the sofa at the rear end of my room, close to a diffractal diffusor that covers the entire rear wall. It sure sound a bit softer back there than in the main chair in the near-field.
Omni's are very nice ... just like you posted OllBoll, at low-medium sound levels. Crank up the volume however and you have the acoustic equivalent of a nuclear blast right in your room. Dipoles have this "potential" too ... in varying degrees. Their directivity gives them a leg up though.
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That is a typical 1st world problem 😀
Didn't try Ambiophonics yet ? Why not.
isn't it also a matter of recording technique as well? One session is surely not enough to draw any conclusions from my side, but all classical recordings played last night failed to provide a satisfactory experience (overfocused, simply unrealistic), whilst all the other types of music were way superior that way..(tight, precise, dynamic and envolving).
Anyway, I have to thank Stig Erik, he opened up a new window.. I thought I was done.. how wrong! I will have to try a heavier absorbing panel, maybe 30cm thick right behind the speaker., floor to ceiling.
Anyway, I have to thank Stig Erik, he opened up a new window.. I thought I was done.. how wrong! I will have to try a heavier absorbing panel, maybe 30cm thick right behind the speaker., floor to ceiling.
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Well yeah, classical music usually suffers from multi-mic recording techniques to make it sound distinct and spacious at the same time, far from what sound like live. Orchestral recordings tend to sound like you are on the conductor podium and not in the hall. You can accept that if you want. I have no problems with accepting that recordings are abstracts, and not the real thing. But I do want to hear everything that is on the recording, and not have a layer of listening room acoustics put in top of it.
I'm a near-field fan, myself. I want to hear what the producer heard when he gave the mix the thumbs up.
For most classical stuff, I like to go into the next room and pretend I'm having a smoke in the foyer. (I know, reliving my youth!)
And I agree with puppet, at some level you exceed the absorption capabilities of the room's materials. Background noise levels increase as pictures start falling off the walls... I suppose you could say you don't want to exceed the Xmax of the furniture. 😉
For most classical stuff, I like to go into the next room and pretend I'm having a smoke in the foyer. (I know, reliving my youth!)
And I agree with puppet, at some level you exceed the absorption capabilities of the room's materials. Background noise levels increase as pictures start falling off the walls... I suppose you could say you don't want to exceed the Xmax of the furniture. 😉