Re: Re: Re: Re: sophisticated amplifiers
Hi Bob,
I made a small mistake. 7ppm refers to a slightly different version of your amp, i.e. 2 pair of MOSFETs (they were superimposed on each other, so I overlooked it). Furthermore, the main power supply was +/- 40V in stead of 35V and Po was 85W in stead of 50W.
Here are more correct figures, although with 2SK1530/2SJ201 in stead of IRFxxx:
THD @ 20kHz and a measuring bandwidth of 200kHz
Po = 0.5W -> 1.45ppm
Po = 5W -> 4.16ppm
Po = 50W -> 6.24ppm
As you can see, my simulator is quite in his element when sniffing at your amp. 🙂
Cheers, Edmond
Bob Cordell said:
Hi Bob,
I made a small mistake. 7ppm refers to a slightly different version of your amp, i.e. 2 pair of MOSFETs (they were superimposed on each other, so I overlooked it). Furthermore, the main power supply was +/- 40V in stead of 35V and Po was 85W in stead of 50W.
Here are more correct figures, although with 2SK1530/2SJ201 in stead of IRFxxx:
THD @ 20kHz and a measuring bandwidth of 200kHz
Po = 0.5W -> 1.45ppm
Po = 5W -> 4.16ppm
Po = 50W -> 6.24ppm
As you can see, my simulator is quite in his element when sniffing at your amp. 🙂
Cheers, Edmond
Nelson Pass said:
Hi Nelson,
Actually, that seems to make sense, as the "effect" in the P-channel IR devices appears to cause a transition in gm in the frequency range between a few hundred and a few thousand Hz.
Cheers,
Bob
Just as interesting, in the complementary followers I described
the distortion rises about 5 dB from 100 to 1 KHz, and then
declines as you go up to 4 KHz, returning to close to the
low frequency value. I haven't looked into the details of that,
but possibly with the phase shift the 2nd harmonics are not
cancelling well under transition.
I consider this artifact minor in Follower applications, and
comparisons to the Fairchild / Harris parts has not shown an
audible degradation.
😎
the distortion rises about 5 dB from 100 to 1 KHz, and then
declines as you go up to 4 KHz, returning to close to the
low frequency value. I haven't looked into the details of that,
but possibly with the phase shift the 2nd harmonics are not
cancelling well under transition.
I consider this artifact minor in Follower applications, and
comparisons to the Fairchild / Harris parts has not shown an
audible degradation.
😎
Nelson Pass said:
When I looked at this awhile ago, my guess was that the "true" gm of the device was the upper frequency part of the shelf (i.e., lower gm), and that the higher gm at dc and low frequencies was possibly from some kind of parasitic charge injection that enhanced the gm somewhat at low frequencies and dc. I seem to recall doing some experiment to try to see which was the "real" gm, and at some point discarded the notion that it was some kind of LF effect that degraded gm at higher frequencies. Either effect is likely to be somewhat nonlinear, so it is not hard to believe that distortion would be created at frequencies where the effect is "in play".
I never got a satisfactory answer from IR in response to my inquiries.
If my speculation about the effect were true, then the true "dynamic" gm of the P-channel device would be less than we think. I can't say that I am comfortable with drawing that conclusion. I have not looked at any of the Fairchild P-channel devices. If you try to compare apples to apples between the IR and Fairchild devices, does the Fairchild device gm look more like that of the IR device at high frequencies or low fequencies?
Cheers,
Bob
Bob Cordell said:
I only recall that the Harris and Fairchild had a flat transconductance
across the audio band - I failed to note the absolute values.
However, I can infer from examination of the data sheets
that if you assume the IR data to have been taken at lower
frequencies, we get agreement at 2.5 S from my test conditions.
The Fairchild equivalent has a slightly higher number at 3 S.
Above midband the IR figure is 1.6 S.
I conclude that we are probably looking at a drop off from spec.
😎
Nelson Pass said:
Hi Nelson,
Have you had any experience with the Toshiba vertical MOSFETs like the 2sk1530 and the 2sj201?
They appear to have a bit lower turn-on voltage than the IRF types, but their spec sheet is a bit sparce. They also appear to be a bit more expensive than the IRF-type devices.
Thanks,
Bob
Bob Cordell said:
No, but I expect them to be good replacements for the IR
parts.
I did test some Toshiba P channels once for the "P channel
gain anomaly", and they didn't show it. At this time it seems
only genuine IR p ch parts have it.
😎
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: sophisticated amplifiers
Hi Andy,
I'll send them to you. It would be very appreciated if you have a careful look at it. Probably, you will discovers some omissions or inaccuracies and I hope you will report these to us.
Cheers, Edmond.
andy_c said:
Hi Andy,
I'll send them to you. It would be very appreciated if you have a careful look at it. Probably, you will discovers some omissions or inaccuracies and I hope you will report these to us.
Cheers, Edmond.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: sophisticated amplifiers
Andy and Edmond,
Thanks guys! I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Cheers,
Bob
estuart said:
Andy and Edmond,
Thanks guys! I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Cheers,
Bob
Okay, here are the models. LTSpice complained about the "L" and "W" values being in the .MODEL definition. Instead, it expects them to be in each model instance definition, so I moved them there. Otherwise, I did not change any model parameters.
In an email, Edmond mentioned that the Cgs values appeared to be low. I had a cursory look at them and this does appear to be the case.
At any rate, I added two .asy files to make these easy to use in LTSpice. These provide MOSFET symbols and connect the symbols to their associated subcircuit files. Just add the .asy and .mod files to the folder containing your project and use the combo box to browse the current directory when using F2 to add a component. I also created two test circuits. These simply do sweeps of Vgs and Vds to generate the characteristic curves. These curves seem to match up to the datasheet pretty well.
Edit: BTW, since these are subcircuits and not .MODELs, you can't use these by dropping an NMOS or PMOS on the schematic. The device-specific symbol files must be used. Just browse in the current directory for the models as mentioned above.
In an email, Edmond mentioned that the Cgs values appeared to be low. I had a cursory look at them and this does appear to be the case.
At any rate, I added two .asy files to make these easy to use in LTSpice. These provide MOSFET symbols and connect the symbols to their associated subcircuit files. Just add the .asy and .mod files to the folder containing your project and use the combo box to browse the current directory when using F2 to add a component. I also created two test circuits. These simply do sweeps of Vgs and Vds to generate the characteristic curves. These curves seem to match up to the datasheet pretty well.
Edit: BTW, since these are subcircuits and not .MODELs, you can't use these by dropping an NMOS or PMOS on the schematic. The device-specific symbol files must be used. Just browse in the current directory for the models as mentioned above.
Princip Naturalis - The Fundamental Principe Des Natur - The Princip of Your Life
thanks, andy_c
you are a decent bloke
you have good will 😉
good name is worth more than a mammon golden calf
The Blonde, Nordic, Aryan Viking, summer of flowers & Greens
up here in near arctic polar Top Of Europe
/Signed
lineup, 2007-06-07 😎
.............
2007 years after, later on .. at June 7th
😎 lineup of www.diyAudio.com
who during his short presence in time, did REFUSE Actively to take part in
the fancy Rave Dance
around The Golden Calf
=============================================
APPENDIX B1.
Princip Naturalis.
The Fundamental Principe Des Natures.
- The Princip of Your Life -
- The Princip of My Short Life -
=============================================
Etymology
- our words used and common context for this use
Golden Calf & Mammon
--------------------------------
Mammon
is a word used to describe riches, avarice, and worldly gain.
It is personified as a false God.
Often, mammon is regarded as material wealth and thought to have an Evil influence.
Golden Calf
is one symbol used, by Those adoring Money, Riches
for worshipping of this false God.
They will Dance Around It
- Rave Partying to get more Luck and more Money in future.
The Keyword here is MORE
they will never be satified & get enough of it
I is like a cancer-growth, it can only be bigger & keep on growing.
... there is no reach a situation of balance.
Just will keep on accelerate:
€10 -> €1.000 -> €100.000 -> €100.000.000 etc. etc. etc.
In short, there is no end to it.
Like is An End to things in Nature:
there is an end to a cycle: Summer -> Autumn -> Winter -> Spring -> Summer.
A sine wave is 'a cyclic thing'.
It is a mirror of a 'princip of nature'.
-> rise reach a positive optimal value
get down into balance again (0V)
-> sink a bit to an optimal negative value
get up to collect some balance again (0V)
-> rise for a positive
..
..
This Universale Naturale Principales
are some
physical principes of wave, cycles, periods
(here illustrated by Summer/Winter & Sine Wave structure)
In the case of A CANCER --> exponential growth infinite
... there is only one end to it ... DEATH
Same way,
Not living according to The Princip of Nature
will have Penality, for not doing so:
The Ultimate konsekvens will be .... DEATH
.. is not for you first - so for others,
and Lastly DEATH of YOU
as we are dependent on Nature to get a life at all (Plants & Animals)
The Keyword here is MORE .. Infinte
.. No ending MORE & More
Just will keep on accelerate:
€10 -> €1.000 -> €100.000 -> €100.000.000 etc. etc. etc.
It doent even come close to a Triangular Wave or Sinus Wave
They will never be satified & get enough of it.
This is Un-Naturale.
HuMan EGO ... is impossible to Satisfy.
It Stands Against
THE VERY fundamental LAW & PRINCIP of NATURE.
This Law has got no mercy, whatsoever.
You really can Trust This Law.
It has got only one Punishment, one Sentencis:
Death Penalty
... not only for you
but for flowers
around you
&
your children
your grand children
&
You grand children
- will suffer your same Punishment
- guilt by in-heritage
- The sinner will punish him self
- The Ultimate konsekvens will Be Death & Darkness
And to not live in accordance, harmony with nature
... willl ....
sooner or later Punish IT SELF
.... and the final Penalty, will be All Life Will Go Way
No life forms of LIFE & Nature, no more On Planet Earth
This dance is not taking place Actually, but is used to describe
what goes on
In The Mind of such A Person,
who are full of this:
Full of golden thinkings, materialism worship & Money Fancying and
with life filled up with other excessive wealth,
at the expence of poor people.
There are, unfortunately,
plenty in my hometown,
that are full of it.
They have it Firmly tied & glued unto their Bone Structure.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
External links:
* Islamic interpretation of the story of the Golden calf in the Qur'an
* The Golden calf from a Jewish/Christian perspective
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon
Understanding A Parable.
1. Each parable has one, and only one, central message.
2. Each parable may have a number of details all of which relate to the central message.
3. Each parable may have details that are essential for telling the story.
Thus parables are drawn from historical circumstances but usually are not historical narratives.
They are story-lessons designed to
- be mirrors of real life in order to teach a found common truth.
So, learn which details to keep and which to throw away.
4. Although a parable has only one central message,
it may have multiple applications:
Goodwill - Relation Public - Logo - Trademark, by keeping A Good Name
----------------
And so, here, in time of your short life cycle, your period on earth,
- take the only chance you ever will get,
- to show off, put at display,
your will is good towards your fellow human
-by actually performing it
and not only, merely,
as a mind exercise 'how good a man you are'
inside your own head
----------------
5. 😎 A parable is not really out to force any doings,
but it may help to describe some ways of do and not to do.
And give some help to try to see eventual results, outcome, of these doings.
Often is implied, by telling parable, a strong recommendation.
.
thanks, andy_c
you are a decent bloke
you have good will 😉
good name is worth more than a mammon golden calf
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The Blonde, Nordic, Aryan Viking, summer of flowers & Greens
up here in near arctic polar Top Of Europe
/Signed
lineup, 2007-06-07 😎
.............
2007 years after, later on .. at June 7th
😎 lineup of www.diyAudio.com
who during his short presence in time, did REFUSE Actively to take part in
the fancy Rave Dance
around The Golden Calf
=============================================
APPENDIX B1.
Princip Naturalis.
The Fundamental Principe Des Natures.
- The Princip of Your Life -
- The Princip of My Short Life -
=============================================
Etymology
- our words used and common context for this use
Golden Calf & Mammon
--------------------------------
Mammon
is a word used to describe riches, avarice, and worldly gain.
It is personified as a false God.
Often, mammon is regarded as material wealth and thought to have an Evil influence.
Golden Calf
is one symbol used, by Those adoring Money, Riches
for worshipping of this false God.
They will Dance Around It
- Rave Partying to get more Luck and more Money in future.
The Keyword here is MORE
they will never be satified & get enough of it
I is like a cancer-growth, it can only be bigger & keep on growing.
... there is no reach a situation of balance.
Just will keep on accelerate:
€10 -> €1.000 -> €100.000 -> €100.000.000 etc. etc. etc.
In short, there is no end to it.
Like is An End to things in Nature:
there is an end to a cycle: Summer -> Autumn -> Winter -> Spring -> Summer.
A sine wave is 'a cyclic thing'.
It is a mirror of a 'princip of nature'.
-> rise reach a positive optimal value
get down into balance again (0V)
-> sink a bit to an optimal negative value
get up to collect some balance again (0V)
-> rise for a positive
..
..
This Universale Naturale Principales
are some
physical principes of wave, cycles, periods
(here illustrated by Summer/Winter & Sine Wave structure)
In the case of A CANCER --> exponential growth infinite
... there is only one end to it ... DEATH
Same way,
Not living according to The Princip of Nature
will have Penality, for not doing so:
The Ultimate konsekvens will be .... DEATH
.. is not for you first - so for others,
and Lastly DEATH of YOU
as we are dependent on Nature to get a life at all (Plants & Animals)
The Keyword here is MORE .. Infinte
.. No ending MORE & More
Just will keep on accelerate:
€10 -> €1.000 -> €100.000 -> €100.000.000 etc. etc. etc.
It doent even come close to a Triangular Wave or Sinus Wave
They will never be satified & get enough of it.
This is Un-Naturale.
HuMan EGO ... is impossible to Satisfy.
It Stands Against
THE VERY fundamental LAW & PRINCIP of NATURE.
This Law has got no mercy, whatsoever.
You really can Trust This Law.
It has got only one Punishment, one Sentencis:
Death Penalty
... not only for you
but for flowers
around you
&
your children
your grand children
&
You grand children
- will suffer your same Punishment
- guilt by in-heritage
- The sinner will punish him self
- The Ultimate konsekvens will Be Death & Darkness
And to not live in accordance, harmony with nature
... willl ....
sooner or later Punish IT SELF
.... and the final Penalty, will be All Life Will Go Way
No life forms of LIFE & Nature, no more On Planet Earth
This dance is not taking place Actually, but is used to describe
what goes on
In The Mind of such A Person,
who are full of this:
Full of golden thinkings, materialism worship & Money Fancying and
with life filled up with other excessive wealth,
at the expence of poor people.
There are, unfortunately,
plenty in my hometown,
that are full of it.
They have it Firmly tied & glued unto their Bone Structure.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
External links:
* Islamic interpretation of the story of the Golden calf in the Qur'an
* The Golden calf from a Jewish/Christian perspective
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon
Understanding A Parable.
1. Each parable has one, and only one, central message.
2. Each parable may have a number of details all of which relate to the central message.
3. Each parable may have details that are essential for telling the story.
Thus parables are drawn from historical circumstances but usually are not historical narratives.
They are story-lessons designed to
- be mirrors of real life in order to teach a found common truth.
So, learn which details to keep and which to throw away.
4. Although a parable has only one central message,
it may have multiple applications:
Goodwill - Relation Public - Logo - Trademark, by keeping A Good Name
----------------
And so, here, in time of your short life cycle, your period on earth,
- take the only chance you ever will get,
- to show off, put at display,
your will is good towards your fellow human
-by actually performing it
and not only, merely,
as a mind exercise 'how good a man you are'
inside your own head
----------------
5. 😎 A parable is not really out to force any doings,
but it may help to describe some ways of do and not to do.
And give some help to try to see eventual results, outcome, of these doings.
Often is implied, by telling parable, a strong recommendation.
.
Here is a zip file containing the actual LTSpice sims - one for the 2SK1530 and one for the 2SJ201. I've parameterized these for the desired Vgs and Vdg, so by simply changing these two .PARAM statements, you can reuse the sims for any FET models you want to check.
andy_c said:
andy
thanks again .. I do not know what i'd be without you ****
regardas a muchos
/linejoy
======================================
*
WHAT ABOUT THE LYRICS?
PAUL Mc Cartney:
"Lyrics to me are kind of secondary,
but some of them are really spot on.
'God Only Knows' lyrics are great.
Those do it to me every time.
And [paul sings 'just one girl' from 'That's Not Me'].
There's something very touching about that little bit of lyric there."
WHEN DID YOU BECOME AWARE OF THE BEACH BOYS?
PAUL McCartney:
"The early surf records ...
I was aware of them as a musical act, and I used to like all that, but I didn't get deeply interested in it - it was just a real nice sound...We used to admire the singing, the high falsetto really and the very sort of 'California' lyrics.
"It was later...it was PET SOUNDS
that BLEW ME OUT OF THE WATER.
First of all, it was Brian's writing.
I LOVE THE ALBUM SO MUCH.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Brian Wilson of The Beach Boys: http://www.brianwilson.com/
The Beach Boys official Website: Play Beach Boys.SWF
----------------------------------
It was when Brian applied that concept to every instrument and vocal timbre at his disposal, he came up with a startlingly unique collection of vibrations. Miraculously, he used voices and instruments to synthesize new sounds that pre-figured contemporary electronics by two decades.
It is not hyperbole to say
that for every pop and rock group that followed in the Beach Boys' wake,
'Pet Sounds' became an audio benchmark.
lineup said:
You're welcome! Thanks for your kind words.
BTW, Edmond did the harder work of doing the model extraction.
and 
When are you two guys going to colaborate on writing a beginner's Wiki, an intermediate Wiki and an advanced Wiki on using/setting up simulators?
