about power response, ''beaming''
Understanding Loudspeaker Data | Eminence Speaker
That's exactly what I think about the beaming issues. While it's important to consider, it's not as important as the FR, not even close. Musicians and everyone who use PA equipment are happy with their ''beaming'' speakers.
Myself, I wouldnt hesitate to use a 210-10D(AM) even though that driver is as beamy as the phasers in Star Trek.
Understanding Loudspeaker Data | Eminence Speaker
That's exactly what I think about the beaming issues. While it's important to consider, it's not as important as the FR, not even close. Musicians and everyone who use PA equipment are happy with their ''beaming'' speakers.
Myself, I wouldnt hesitate to use a 210-10D(AM) even though that driver is as beamy as the phasers in Star Trek.
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Comparing drivers equalized for the same response in the near field is similar to comparing the handling and ride of vastly different cars on a very smooth, flat, straight road-we would not be to "feel" the differences. Take those same cars "off axis" by introducing turns or bumps and the difference between them would be apparent.
Art
If we were to compare the handling and ride of vastly different cars on a very smooth, flat, straight road, to avoid confirmation bias, we would also have to remove the car seats and place the comparison subject in a soundproof, environmentally sealed padded coffin within the car.
Then, with an expert driver guiding them perfectly straight down a perfectly smooth hill with the engine off, it would be just as difficult to identify cars by their "feel" as it would be to identify drivers in your test.
Art
Comparing drivers equalized for the same response in the near field is similar to comparing the handling and ride of vastly different cars on a very smooth, flat, straight road-we would not be to "feel" the differences. Take those same cars "off axis" by introducing turns or bumps and the difference between them would be apparent.
Art
Jon,
If we were to compare the handling and ride of vastly different cars on a very smooth, flat, straight road, to avoid confirmation bias, we would also have to remove the car seats and place the comparison subject in a soundproof, environmentally sealed padded coffin within the car.
Then, with an expert driver guiding them perfectly straight down a perfectly smooth hill with the engine off, it would be just as difficult to identify cars by their "feel" as it would be to identify drivers in your test.
Art
Joke aside, Art, I understand your point.
Problem is, for many, many audiophiles... The FR is NOT the only factor.
YOU might think that EQ-correcting all drivers would be comparable to your coffinmobile experience, but for many it's not.
For starters, the power response. Very measurable. Very objective.
And I'm not even mentioning the numerous (pick one) esoteric arguments that audiophiles can use for pretty much anything, including speakers...
My point of view is: No, it was not that obvious that EQ-corrected drivers would all ''sound the same''.
...and, making them all ''sound the same'' doesn't mean they are suddenly ''as bad as the worst one''...
Problem is, for many, many audiophiles... The FR is NOT the only factor.
YOU might think that EQ-correcting all drivers would be comparable to your coffinmobile experience, but for many it's not.
For starters, the power response. Very measurable. Very objective.
And I'm not even mentioning the numerous (pick one) esoteric arguments that audiophiles can use for pretty much anything, including speakers...
My point of view is: No, it was not that obvious that EQ-corrected drivers would all ''sound the same''.
...and, making them all ''sound the same'' doesn't mean they are suddenly ''as bad as the worst one''...
Jon,
Frequency response of a "beaming" speaker is correctable only on one axis, "choose your poison".
For sound reinforcement/PA speakers to have a reasonable chance of satisfying patrons (or sound engineers) at more than one location in a venue, even dispersion is far more important than on axis response.
Fortunately, there are alternatives to beaming and lousy polar response available for those who care about sound in other than the "sweet spot".
Art
Just as as reminder: there is still audiophiles that are convinced, CONVINCED, a break-in of hundreds of hours, if not thousands, is necessary for speakers, in order to deliver ''their true potential''.
And, of course, in their minds, the audio memory can last months... so they will be able to compare and evaluate said break-in positive effects....
We have a long way to walk.
And, of course, in their minds, the audio memory can last months... so they will be able to compare and evaluate said break-in positive effects....
We have a long way to walk.
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I agree with all of that.
I was more referring to the Eminence link about guitar amplifiers and 2-way monitor speakers.
Many are able to live with that. That's it.
Of course, if any project requires good off-axis response, the components should be selected based on that. Like any project of any kind: you select the components according to the needs.
Also, I'd like to point out that I'm not refuting the power response argument. Not at all. From the beginning I am saying that power response and max potential output (SPL) are factors to be considered when choosing drivers.
Jon,
At the drive levels encountered with the SPL many listen at, the soft parts of a speaker's suspension could easily take hundreds of hours to "break in".
The "break in" changes to TS parameters and frequency response can be accomplished rapidly by driving the same drivers to or past Xmax for a few hours.
Art
Bytheway, Art,
beamy drivers can be useful sometimes.
I made speakers for a showroom and the beamy tweeters are focused outside of the zone where customers and salespersons are discussing.
Also in restaurants, you can use beamy drivers redirected to walls/ceiling to smoothly diffuse the higher frequencies in order to avoid having a noisy environment where customers are raising their voices to compensate for the loud music, creating a vicious circle where everybody raises their voices.
Same applies with outdoor venues where you can beam the mid-hi frequencies, and avoid complaints from the neighborhood (if the low frequencies are restricted to a certain SPL, of course...)
beamy drivers can be useful sometimes.
I made speakers for a showroom and the beamy tweeters are focused outside of the zone where customers and salespersons are discussing.
Also in restaurants, you can use beamy drivers redirected to walls/ceiling to smoothly diffuse the higher frequencies in order to avoid having a noisy environment where customers are raising their voices to compensate for the loud music, creating a vicious circle where everybody raises their voices.
Same applies with outdoor venues where you can beam the mid-hi frequencies, and avoid complaints from the neighborhood (if the low frequencies are restricted to a certain SPL, of course...)
Manufacturers that are selling transducers that have T&S parameters drastically changing after ''break-in'' should stop selling transducers.
Any serious transducer's manufacturer would either:
1. Build transducers that provide stable and reliable T&S parameters, even after normal use.
2. Provide T&S parameters from transducers after said necessary break-in is completed.
1. Build transducers that provide stable and reliable T&S parameters, even after normal use.
2. Provide T&S parameters from transducers after said necessary break-in is completed.
All professional (and all hi-fi, I believe) loudspeaker manufacturers measure TS parameters after 2 hours of torture at the nominal loudspeaker power. After that, TS parameters are stable.
After many measured loudspeakers, I found that TS parameters does not change much after 15 minutes of torture, but make it 2 hours for big woofers, to be safe.
See above.
Materials used in loudspeakers (spider, surround) are not ideal, so they need break-in. Simple laws of physics and nature of the non-ideal materials.
See above. After 2 hours of breaking-in, TS parameters are stable.
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That makes just as much sense as saying car manufacturers that sell cars with "a new car smell" should stop selling cars 😉.
That said, without defining "drastic", not much more to be said.
It would be interesting to see amount of change ranging from "cold" driver at 20C up to long term max excursion
In some way it makes sense, I develop lacquers for specific performance in different temperatures. we have to give parameters within ± whatever. If we would not do this, no sales...
I believe PA drivers are expected to perform at high levels to reach specs, but not sure?
Uhm, no?
The right comparison would be that a car is sold as 200 horsepower but then after few thousand kilometers it drops to 150hp.
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