Well, that escalated quickly.
You're putting words in my mouth my dear fellow.
Here is some reasons why buying a more expensive driver makes total sense:
1. You want to get a wider bandwith (by example 20-30hz)
2. You want to reach a certain SPL
3. You want to get a certain power response
4. You want a nice-looking driver
5. You want a weatherproof driver
6. You want a driver that performs well in a smaller enclosure
7. You want a driver that performs well in a closed/vented enclosure
....and so on.
Your comment make no sense.
Welcome back Plasnu
Audio memory lasts only few seconds, when there is little differences, such as 0.5db SPL or 1/3 octave... (but you will remember a person's voice for years)
The ABX test I made was following the same procedure all the time: participants could listen to the drivers as much as they wanted before the test. All of them decided they were comfortable to start the test after only 2-3 rounds of pre-test. Also, many of them were convinced to hear differences, subtle or obvious.
Then, once blinded, not only no one could identify correctly, but many participants, after few rounds, were candid about their inabilities to identify A from B. Some openly took guesses.
I said it and I will repeat it:
Human. Hearing. Is. Overestimated.
I NEVER said that spending more money on XYZ driver is foolish.
That's a huge misinterpretation of my conclusions and therefore my test.
The interpretation is so wrong that it prompts me to question his ability to understand the explanations of the test as a whole. And I say it without an ounce of malice.
Just to get that straight:
My opinion about spending more on drivers, in order of importance:
1. High SPL costs a lot. The louder you want it, the more you have to spend. Especially in the lower frequencies. Expensive drivers, big/better enclosures, more amplifier power.
2. Full 10 octaves costs more. You can have a very cheap wideband that will let you listen your music, but it will cover 7-8 octaves, maybe even less.
3. (1+2 = $$$) If you want a perfect flat 20hz-20khz that can reach 110db in-room and undistorted, you will have to spend much more and maybe consider 3 or 4way configuration.
4. Power response. Wider dispersion goal will limit your choice of driver if 1) or 2) or both. Therefore you may have to pay more.
Many (good) reasons to pay more for your drivers.
My opinion about spending more on drivers, in order of importance:
1. High SPL costs a lot. The louder you want it, the more you have to spend. Especially in the lower frequencies. Expensive drivers, big/better enclosures, more amplifier power.
2. Full 10 octaves costs more. You can have a very cheap wideband that will let you listen your music, but it will cover 7-8 octaves, maybe even less.
3. (1+2 = $$$) If you want a perfect flat 20hz-20khz that can reach 110db in-room and undistorted, you will have to spend much more and maybe consider 3 or 4way configuration.
4. Power response. Wider dispersion goal will limit your choice of driver if 1) or 2) or both. Therefore you may have to pay more.
Many (good) reasons to pay more for your drivers.
My conclusion after a dozen years of R&D and market tests is that the average consumer will not spend more on a sound system than on his TV.
I caricature a bit, but I think no less.
In my humble opinion, the DIY branch of audiophilia will survive without problems, but that of the conventional Hi-Fi market will die at the same time as the last active audiophiles from the 90s ... There will be a few crumbs to keep the torch lit, but nothing of the glory of the 80s -'00s. I will not shed a single tear. This market has run to its own loss.
I caricature a bit, but I think no less.
In my humble opinion, the DIY branch of audiophilia will survive without problems, but that of the conventional Hi-Fi market will die at the same time as the last active audiophiles from the 90s ... There will be a few crumbs to keep the torch lit, but nothing of the glory of the 80s -'00s. I will not shed a single tear. This market has run to its own loss.
You didn't say it in exactly those words, but you certainly implied it in various posts. Here are two of them:
Post #167
"I don't 'believe' in amplifiers anymore. I don't believe in DACs. I don't believe in cables. And now I don't believe there is any major differences to the ears, in regards of drivers. Not as I thought before.
Power response, max output potential (SPL) and frequency response (EQ correctable or not). That's about it."
Post #199
"A 10$ driver, once EQd, can sound the same as a 2000$ driver.
Enough said."
You have this rather "I'm the last word on the subject" attitude.
"If you don't listen to me you're wasting your money."
You may have done interesting testing and come to some reasonable conclusions based on a very narrow set of conditions. But I think it is far from the whole story when it comes to people choosing their audio components.
And that's why I keep challenging your posts. Not because I think I know more than you. I probably don't at the deep technical level. I just don't think you have the whole story as it applies to most people here.
Yeah, I think its the use of the word "midrange" here, when in reality Jon's only tested whether drivers are distinguishable under a very specific set of conditions, a set of conditions that probably lend themselves to a statistically insignificamt amount of real world applications.
well said, I doubt OP will truly adress what you are saying here though
Still a fun thread though!
Just be aware of one fact, which is that KiiThree uses 200 € worth of drivers for both boxes and it sounds amazing. And what do we do now?
Myself doubt the test results but I will replicate them and see what I get.
It's bad to strike a conclusion just because you don't like the result.
Replicate the test and see what they get. Verification of findings is always a good thing. And maybe learn something in the process.
It's bad to strike a conclusion just because you don't like the result.
Replicate the test and see what they get. Verification of findings is always a good thing. And maybe learn something in the process.
Classicalfan,
You're challenging my posts (not that much, I assure you) because you don't like the conclusions. Which is entirely understandable. I didn't like the conclusions myself.
The problem, and it is not only yours, but that of several people here and elsewhere than on the forum, is that the very concept of the test is not always well understood.
It is imperative to take the test results (this one or another) for what it is, no more, no less.
My driver comparison at 10 $ v.s. $ 2,000, made intentionally to shock, has no intention of deceiving. This is the strict truth in the context of the test. And it is also the strict reality in a 3-way speaker context, where an inexpensive midrange could perform as well as a midrange of 2 times or 50 times the price.
Now, some are not at all surprised by these results, and others refuse to believe it. And, frankly, there, it's not my problem anymore.
The famous 1500/2000$ driver for instance...
Would it be foolish to buy a Voxativ? Not at all.
If you want the simplicity of a fullrange speaker system AND the highest SPL possible AND the widest bandwith possible... That's among the best options possible.
It's easy to understand, no?
...Now. That might raise another question: is the Fullrange, as a concept, is the best solution for high SPL+wide bandwith? Most probably not.
Why intend to shock?
What company was involved in funding/supporting the project?
You know there are ongoing debates and disagreements about what people can or can't hear. Why fan the flames?
The determining factor in the design of a Hi-Fi sound system is SPL.
The frequency response should be "mandatory", in the sense that it is not a choice of color, it is the condition for high fidelity.
The question of the SPL is, of course, intimately linked to the question of the listening room. Its total volume, its characteristics, the target position of the speakers, etc.
Then, there is the question of power response depending on the needs and the room.
But it all comes back to the question of the SPL. "How loud do you want / need it".
Then, if a sacrifice is made, a compromise to obtain this target SPL, about the low frequencies, or even very high frequencies, it is a drift apart from the high-fidelity.
The frequency response should be "mandatory", in the sense that it is not a choice of color, it is the condition for high fidelity.
The question of the SPL is, of course, intimately linked to the question of the listening room. Its total volume, its characteristics, the target position of the speakers, etc.
Then, there is the question of power response depending on the needs and the room.
But it all comes back to the question of the SPL. "How loud do you want / need it".
Then, if a sacrifice is made, a compromise to obtain this target SPL, about the low frequencies, or even very high frequencies, it is a drift apart from the high-fidelity.
The FR10 and AC-1.6 match up was in fact our ultimate attempt to find a threshold. Oh wait, that's not true, it was the Dayton woofer rs225 against the Radian 950PB compression...
Yeah, shocking indeed.
Maybe two glasses of pinot noir.
Yeah, shocking indeed.
Maybe two glasses of pinot noir.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.