macboy said:
The neutral actually originates in your circuit panel. The feed from the utility is 240V single phase. There is no neutral coming from your utilities service. The neutral is created by grounding inside your panel. Open up your panel if you do not believe me.
Well, I don't know which country you live in, but that practise (grounding the neutral in your distrib box) can get you arrested for criminal neglect in The Netherlands, and indeed most of Europe. We get 3 wires from the power company, phase, neutral and ground (and the other phases, but most of the times these are not used in house installlations). Are you sure your panel wasn't put in by some unqualified moonlighter trying to skimp a few bucks?
Jan Didden
Jan Didden
janneman said:
You may not have heard, but mains is 120VAC over here 🙂
Arguing this is just brutal. Just do a net search if you don't believe me!
http://www.electricalknowledge.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=50
Sorry leadbelly, some one has fumbled on your electrical system.
According to your national organ Canadian Electrical Code (C.E.C.) and ESA you must have 3 wires in a wall outlet with 3 pins.
See this link http://www.electrical-online.com/howtoarticles/Grounding.htm
"If you live in an older home (pre 1960's), you may have "polarized", rather than grounded receptacles. Polarized receptacles operate on a 2-wire vs. a 3-wire system. A polarized receptacle visibly differs from a grounded receptacle as they are two, rather than three-pronged. Important to note that you cannot change a polarized receptacle to a 3-prong grounded receptacle without either grounding the outlet properly, or using a GFCI receptacle. (Check local electrical authority and codes.)
Some one (Sweden) said that old TV’s are connected at the chassis. That’s right but they all have a trafo in their antenna circuit.
This topic can seem to be irregular, but here are so many opinions and standards in line power writing. I have been a sound engineer for several years, and often there are problems with musician/PA equipment from other countries. (I’m sorry to say that the Danish system is bad, but wee have no ground in our normal outlet, only in wet rooms).
According to your national organ Canadian Electrical Code (C.E.C.) and ESA you must have 3 wires in a wall outlet with 3 pins.
See this link http://www.electrical-online.com/howtoarticles/Grounding.htm
"If you live in an older home (pre 1960's), you may have "polarized", rather than grounded receptacles. Polarized receptacles operate on a 2-wire vs. a 3-wire system. A polarized receptacle visibly differs from a grounded receptacle as they are two, rather than three-pronged. Important to note that you cannot change a polarized receptacle to a 3-prong grounded receptacle without either grounding the outlet properly, or using a GFCI receptacle. (Check local electrical authority and codes.)
Some one (Sweden) said that old TV’s are connected at the chassis. That’s right but they all have a trafo in their antenna circuit.
This topic can seem to be irregular, but here are so many opinions and standards in line power writing. I have been a sound engineer for several years, and often there are problems with musician/PA equipment from other countries. (I’m sorry to say that the Danish system is bad, but wee have no ground in our normal outlet, only in wet rooms).
To the best of my knowledge ground and neutral are connected at the fuse box in Sweden. In fact, that's where protective ground comes into existence. Then again, we almost always use all three phases within a household for even load distribution and less impact of single phase failure. Nowehere have I've seen a separate ground connector from the electricity company.
It's important to understand what the protective ground is for: to ensure that fuses blow if a live wire comes in contact with the metal case of an appliance.
Ground fault protection is an entirely different beast, which relies on measuring the difference in current between live and neutral. More than approximately 10mA difference, and the breaker trips, as it means current is escaping on an alternate route.
That said, it's a sound practice to make no assumptions what so ever on what wire is which in an outlet. Your appliance should work equally well either way, if the PSU is well built.
I'm fully aware different countries have different standards, but I'm pretty sure all of EU use similar wiring standards, and when you think about it, running the ground conductor all the way to the power company makes very little sense, as it would only increase the risk of dangerous failure along the way.
Rune Bivrin
It's important to understand what the protective ground is for: to ensure that fuses blow if a live wire comes in contact with the metal case of an appliance.
Ground fault protection is an entirely different beast, which relies on measuring the difference in current between live and neutral. More than approximately 10mA difference, and the breaker trips, as it means current is escaping on an alternate route.
That said, it's a sound practice to make no assumptions what so ever on what wire is which in an outlet. Your appliance should work equally well either way, if the PSU is well built.
I'm fully aware different countries have different standards, but I'm pretty sure all of EU use similar wiring standards, and when you think about it, running the ground conductor all the way to the power company makes very little sense, as it would only increase the risk of dangerous failure along the way.
Rune Bivrin
dalbjerg said:
I hate threads like this, having to outshout the dunderheads so someone in the future doing a search will not be mislead. Don't worry about baiting me, I will not post in this thread again. So I will shut up and just post links to what others say:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/section-17.html
"Since the white wire is connected to neutral and the grounding conductor inside the panel, the proper term is "grounded conductor"."
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/section-15.html
"There are logically four wires involved with supplying the main panel with power. Three of them will come from the utility pole, and a fourth (bare) wire comes from elsewhere."
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/section-32.html
"Nowadays, many two-prong devices have one prong wider than the other. This is so that the device could rely (not guaranteed!) on one specific wire being neutral, and the other hot. This is particularly advantageous in light fixtures, where the the shell should neutral (safety), or other devices which want to have an approximate ground reference (ie: some radios)."
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