Possible alternative configuration
This is my first post here, and not quite knowing where to post on this one, I thought I'd share my workings on a taller alternative to the Frugel (attached pdf), and any comments would be gratefully received...(also being worked on for the FE126)....
I wanted not only to acheive more height for the driver, but also to work in a slightly longer horn (heading more towards the Austin perhaps)..I was also planning on about 140mm internal width...
BTW I don't know if I've missed it on any previous posts, but had anyone here previously built (or heard as a comparison to the Frugel) the 'cheap trick' BLH on the full range site?..any comments?
Great Forum BTW....so much info...
This is my first post here, and not quite knowing where to post on this one, I thought I'd share my workings on a taller alternative to the Frugel (attached pdf), and any comments would be gratefully received...(also being worked on for the FE126)....
I wanted not only to acheive more height for the driver, but also to work in a slightly longer horn (heading more towards the Austin perhaps)..I was also planning on about 140mm internal width...
BTW I don't know if I've missed it on any previous posts, but had anyone here previously built (or heard as a comparison to the Frugel) the 'cheap trick' BLH on the full range site?..any comments?
Great Forum BTW....so much info...
I finally have both speakers permanently buttoned up. Here is a picture of the speakers in a VERY messy room wearing the ever stylish pink My wife would shoot me if she new I was posting pictures of the room in this state! Styrofoam SupraBaffles. They sound very good with very good bass. With my bare feet on the floor I can feel the bass lines on the Beatles Love CD.
Attachments
Lastly, here is the in room response as set up in the prior picture. Both speakers driven with the Mic about 8 feet away. The Mike is slightly off axis which I think explains the tamed high end rise. Subjectively, it sounds like the plot looks; pretty well balanced with good low extension (~45-50hz).
Now I'm going to go back and listen for a while!
Now I'm going to go back and listen for a while!
Attachments
If placed properly in a room, they make you forget you are listening to a 4" speaker and have more than enough bass for most music. Here's a graph of my FrugelHorn v1's in the corner of a 12x10 foot room. Mic was placed at the listening position.
So I'm sure Dennis would have better results in the bass dept if he a) built deflectors or b) placed his in the corners of the room or simply c) let the speakers break in some more.
So I'm sure Dennis would have better results in the bass dept if he a) built deflectors or b) placed his in the corners of the room or simply c) let the speakers break in some more.
At the risk of sounding overly defensive of my "baby"...
Charcoal - I think you're understating the low end performance to try to prove your point. I've attached the in-room response and drawn a line at roughly the average SPL and another about 3db down. Based on that, the speaker gets down to a solid 60 hz, not 80-100. Back at post 61, I posted a hornresp graph of max output that shows it will play 60hz at ~100db.
AndrewT - I thought the gist of posts 60-62 was not that the speaker wouldn't play low but that it would not meet your standard of something like 110-115db peak. This is not a home theater speaker.
On lot's of music, it will play louder than I care to listen and play low enough to be satisfying AND I also have the satisfaction of having designed it and built it myself. How could it get any better than that?
Charcoal - I think you're understating the low end performance to try to prove your point. I've attached the in-room response and drawn a line at roughly the average SPL and another about 3db down. Based on that, the speaker gets down to a solid 60 hz, not 80-100. Back at post 61, I posted a hornresp graph of max output that shows it will play 60hz at ~100db.
AndrewT - I thought the gist of posts 60-62 was not that the speaker wouldn't play low but that it would not meet your standard of something like 110-115db peak. This is not a home theater speaker.
On lot's of music, it will play louder than I care to listen and play low enough to be satisfying AND I also have the satisfaction of having designed it and built it myself. How could it get any better than that?
Attachments
Well, I made a mistake promptly looking over the graph.
But -6 for 60Hz.... probably thats amazing result for such a small driver.... but what for?!? Bass from 4 incher will never be real bass inspite on SPL graphs.
My English is poor to explain what I mean. But if you lisson 8incher in horn with bigger moouth and 4 inch in frugel: even they will have the same roll of at 60Hz ...... Bass and lower mid done by 4 inch speaker will be always like a parody. SPL graph is not it all.
But -6 for 60Hz.... probably thats amazing result for such a small driver.... but what for?!? Bass from 4 incher will never be real bass inspite on SPL graphs.
My English is poor to explain what I mean. But if you lisson 8incher in horn with bigger moouth and 4 inch in frugel: even they will have the same roll of at 60Hz ...... Bass and lower mid done by 4 inch speaker will be always like a parody. SPL graph is not it all.
Charcoal, have you ever heard one of these horns with a 4"er?
The bass is a totally different experience. Bass guitar doesn't sound like a fat test tone, but rather someone plucking the strings. A bass drum sounds like it might in a small jazz club where the drummer has placed a pillow or two in it to get just the right sound. You don't hear that level of detail from an 8" woofer being pushed to max excursion.
i think the best part is that at low SPL levels the bass is still well matched to the rest of the freq response. You don't have to turn it up to catch the bass line in a song. It cuts through even at low listening levels.
The bass is a totally different experience. Bass guitar doesn't sound like a fat test tone, but rather someone plucking the strings. A bass drum sounds like it might in a small jazz club where the drummer has placed a pillow or two in it to get just the right sound. You don't hear that level of detail from an 8" woofer being pushed to max excursion.
i think the best part is that at low SPL levels the bass is still well matched to the rest of the freq response. You don't have to turn it up to catch the bass line in a song. It cuts through even at low listening levels.
dhenryp said:On lot's of music, it will play louder than I care to listen and play low enough to be satisfying AND I also have the satisfaction of having designed it and built it myself. How could it get any better than that?
Amen brother
Well said, this is for enjoyment of our music and the satisfaction of building something. I am impressed with your results. There are a lot of commercial products available that dont do any better, and cost a whole lot more.
Ed
chuyler1 ,
I DO love horns and I love their bass. I`v been using AION horn with 8 incher for 3 years.
I am not trying to tell you that 8 inch overexursioned polypropylen **** in bassreflex sounds better! I love horn bass (but let us be honest - its not a bass but rather midbass).)))
I understand that this is a pleasure to build and listen something like Frugel. But I also understand that real bass in real world is done also by air volume displacement. And this is also a fact for horns. If you listen "honest" horn (I mean with big enough mouth), tuned the same freq. and with bigger drivers Sd - you will always see the differance.
It will be fast and detailed (like frugel) BUT - there will be drive, power and energy. And less distorted - because less of exc. needed.
This is not achievable by just getting needed SPL level at the bottom. You can get needed Spl with various methode and drivers. But you ear will tell you the differance when you listen.
I DO love horns and I love their bass. I`v been using AION horn with 8 incher for 3 years.
I am not trying to tell you that 8 inch overexursioned polypropylen **** in bassreflex sounds better! I love horn bass (but let us be honest - its not a bass but rather midbass).)))
I understand that this is a pleasure to build and listen something like Frugel. But I also understand that real bass in real world is done also by air volume displacement. And this is also a fact for horns. If you listen "honest" horn (I mean with big enough mouth), tuned the same freq. and with bigger drivers Sd - you will always see the differance.
It will be fast and detailed (like frugel) BUT - there will be drive, power and energy. And less distorted - because less of exc. needed.
This is not achievable by just getting needed SPL level at the bottom. You can get needed Spl with various methode and drivers. But you ear will tell you the differance when you listen.
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