I am having a hard time wording this without sounding flippant, but my question is genuine and the curiosity is sincere with no ill intention. Joshua_G- if you can't afford to build a different set of speakers; the primary discussion of this topic and yet you are unsatisfied with sound you are getting in your home in sounding closer to live music what is gained by perusing this thread?
I can certainly empathize with your situation. I am within driving distance of the BSO and NYPhil and attend a couple of concerts a month. I don't know how the acoustics of those two venues are compared to Israel, but I too have never heard a set of speakers that sound like what I am hearing in those halls. The most egregious deficiencies are in 1) vertical soundstaging, especially being seated in the balconies 2) recreation of hall sound and ambiance 3) Grandeur of live presentation. The last is the most difficult to put into words, but it's an X factor that is either there or it isn't. The speakers that I have heard that can hint at some of those qualities usually take away from the things that I have to have in a speaker- to sound natural first and foremost and nail the tone of acoustic instruments. They usually have some other coloration that makes it plain obvious you are listening to a speaker- horn sound, awful frequency response, ringing, tonally dead, etc. But for me hifi is something more than just nailing the live sound. There are tens of thousands of incredible classical and jazz performances. The problem with sticking to just live music is you're handcuffed to what is being played in the current schedule and many of the greatest composers have passed away. I watched a great BBC documentary on Wagner's Ring Cycle which sparked my interest in revisiting the famous Decca Solti recording. Even on meager ESL57 which do not have the scope to do live classical music this music (dedicating 2 hours every night I am free) is transporting me Solti's stunning performance.
Recently I've been intrigued by trying out Supravox 215RTF drivers in OB (either RAAL or Beyma planar tweeter) with Altec bass augmentation. If the former works out, then looking into the field coil version. If not then the 215RTF isn't a huge expense and the Altec can be transitioned to Lynn/Gary's design.
Lynn thank you for the updated Karna schematic. I am slowly inching my way towards that build. First gathering all the parts to build Kevinkr's 300B push pull amp to have one PP amp under the belt.
I can certainly empathize with your situation. I am within driving distance of the BSO and NYPhil and attend a couple of concerts a month. I don't know how the acoustics of those two venues are compared to Israel, but I too have never heard a set of speakers that sound like what I am hearing in those halls. The most egregious deficiencies are in 1) vertical soundstaging, especially being seated in the balconies 2) recreation of hall sound and ambiance 3) Grandeur of live presentation. The last is the most difficult to put into words, but it's an X factor that is either there or it isn't. The speakers that I have heard that can hint at some of those qualities usually take away from the things that I have to have in a speaker- to sound natural first and foremost and nail the tone of acoustic instruments. They usually have some other coloration that makes it plain obvious you are listening to a speaker- horn sound, awful frequency response, ringing, tonally dead, etc. But for me hifi is something more than just nailing the live sound. There are tens of thousands of incredible classical and jazz performances. The problem with sticking to just live music is you're handcuffed to what is being played in the current schedule and many of the greatest composers have passed away. I watched a great BBC documentary on Wagner's Ring Cycle which sparked my interest in revisiting the famous Decca Solti recording. Even on meager ESL57 which do not have the scope to do live classical music this music (dedicating 2 hours every night I am free) is transporting me Solti's stunning performance.
Recently I've been intrigued by trying out Supravox 215RTF drivers in OB (either RAAL or Beyma planar tweeter) with Altec bass augmentation. If the former works out, then looking into the field coil version. If not then the 215RTF isn't a huge expense and the Altec can be transitioned to Lynn/Gary's design.
Lynn thank you for the updated Karna schematic. I am slowly inching my way towards that build. First gathering all the parts to build Kevinkr's 300B push pull amp to have one PP amp under the belt.
Pardon my ignorance, but I thought that one's distance from a driver (e.g. Gary's Radian 745NeoBe). Instead, HF droop had nothing to do with the driver's own HF performance. That is, at least with compression drivers, isn't that how quickly and deeply across its "usable" bandwidth frequencies are attenuated (due to phase cancellations?).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_plug#Compression_drivers
If there's actually so little info in recorded music above 10kHz (just about the limit for Gary's horns I believe) then why do >90% of all speakers-and plenty of DIY designs too-have tweeters? I haven't had my ears checked in over two years, but the last time I did I could hear up to 15kHz, or better. Yes, that T900 Alnico ain't cheap; neither
is this one https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/bullet-tweeters /fostex-t500amkii-super-tweeter-new-version/ Btw, I did consider less pricey tweeter alternatives, but Gary found that (RAAL) ribbons aren't compatible. What about AMTs mounted above the Azurahorn http://www.hellsound.de/contents/de/MUNDORF_hifiAMT_Flyer_2013.pdf
Would AMTs' vertical dispersion be poor in small rooms like mine?
However, my biggest hesitation for adding a tweeter would be doing anything (e.g. adding another passive crossover) to that would jeopardize Gary's speakers' apparently stunning performance-substantially better than he had expected http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-1295.html Or am I worrying over nothing?
Your so very lucky you cannot hear the difference. No, not really, I've enjoyed my 30 year run with audio. I've had nirvana a couple of times and one of those times is the present. Good luck.
Those supertweeters
Filtering music at 10 kHz gives an easily audible difference although very little energy is present. Even a cartridge resonance (typ around 20 kHz) which does not alter the frequency response below 15 kHz is easily audible on music. It is difficult to indicate why this is, but probably it has to do with the easier interpretation of timing cues and thus directional and distance information when the 10 to 15+ (35?) kHz range is correctly reproduced. So it is not sweeter, more dynamic and more transparent to our ears, but easier on our brain (which makes it sweeter, more dynamic, more transparent in our perception).
In any case, the supertweeter consideration for Beyond the Ariel is also about having a bit wider dispersion at the highest frequencies where the compression driver + horn might become too narrow (which not only depends on the Azurahorn but also on the exit angle and conical length of the chosen compression driver: Radian v Altec).
The contribution of any driver extends at least on octave beyond the x-over frequency, so you should not just focus on the range above the x-over frequency in your consideration of the impact of a tweeter.
The bandwidth of our hearing on transients is larger than for continuous signals such as noise or single tones. With 'continuous' signals, there is a feedback mechanism that sharpens the basilar membrane tuning curves which increases our frequency resolution. The feedback mechanism has a rise time and a fall time, and when no (sufficiently loud) sound was present in a frequency band in the 20 ms preceding the transient, then there will be no sharpening yet for that basilar location: thus a wider bandwidth at that location. The wider bandwidth also gives a better time resolution. There is a lot of data for the speech range (most auditory research now serves cochlear implants applications), but limited data for the highest frequencies. The limited available data suggests that the bandwidth of our hearing without the sharpening (thus for transients, not for steady state signals) is approximately 35 kHz. Of course with a high threshold that increases linearly with age .
Filtering music at 10 kHz gives an easily audible difference although very little energy is present. Even a cartridge resonance (typ around 20 kHz) which does not alter the frequency response below 15 kHz is easily audible on music. It is difficult to indicate why this is, but probably it has to do with the easier interpretation of timing cues and thus directional and distance information when the 10 to 15+ (35?) kHz range is correctly reproduced. So it is not sweeter, more dynamic and more transparent to our ears, but easier on our brain (which makes it sweeter, more dynamic, more transparent in our perception).
In any case, the supertweeter consideration for Beyond the Ariel is also about having a bit wider dispersion at the highest frequencies where the compression driver + horn might become too narrow (which not only depends on the Azurahorn but also on the exit angle and conical length of the chosen compression driver: Radian v Altec).
The contribution of any driver extends at least on octave beyond the x-over frequency, so you should not just focus on the range above the x-over frequency in your consideration of the impact of a tweeter.
The AMT25 is quite good, but not much cheaper than the T900 and 10dB less sensitive. Then it is still highly probable that the dispersion and micro- and macro-dynamics would not be an optimal fit. Even if these would fit well enough, then you still need to design, experiment and optimize the x-over yourself. You can learn a lot from experiments and making mistakes, so it would interesting if you could lend some AMT's from friends to do the experiment or if you can buy some 2nd hand that you can resell with limited loss. Personally I never buy any driver that I have not heard in a similar system, or that I couldn't test in my own system before buying.
If your practical experience in speaker optimization is still maturing, I would suggest to change nothing to Gary his design, or wait for Lynn his design which will probably use the Altec 288 and a supertweeter.
Thank you BoldName and PeterBracke. Until Lynn or someone has successfully wedded a particular tweeter to the BTA system, it's best to keep things as they are.
Has anybody explored the possibilities of using the tweeter baked into a GPA-Model 604 or any of the Altec 604 variants as a super tweeter and xover over at say... 9k and north?
You wouldn't need the supplied horn, so, maybe modify the actual horn. Or even replace the whole 802 tweeter and horn? Would love to know what that "cavity" and "channel" that the 802 occupy looks like.
It sure seems like a good real estate location to park a super tweeter.
Also... anybody have an opinion on the 604 15" woofer comparable SQ of it's 515/416 brothers.
You wouldn't need the supplied horn, so, maybe modify the actual horn. Or even replace the whole 802 tweeter and horn? Would love to know what that "cavity" and "channel" that the 802 occupy looks like.
It sure seems like a good real estate location to park a super tweeter.
Also... anybody have an opinion on the 604 15" woofer comparable SQ of it's 515/416 brothers.
The Altec 604 is a coaxial speaker, 15" and compression driver on a small multicell horn. They are actually a nice sounding speaker used for years as a recording monitor, the only real problem is that they lack a certain presence in the midrange. I'd take a pair if I found them in working order and they hadn't been molested but I know there would always be that proaudio horn sound to the midrange and pushing the 15" a bit higher than it should really go. I've been around that speaker for years.
I apologize for interfering in such a specialized topic, I'm a fan of electronics with few studies but much enthusiasm, especially acoustic.
I just wanted to comment that Hiraga used the Altec 604 with JBL 075 tweeter, I would like to know your opinion.
Greetings and thanks
6moons industry features: Jean Hiraga
I just wanted to comment that Hiraga used the Altec 604 with JBL 075 tweeter, I would like to know your opinion.
Greetings and thanks
6moons industry features: Jean Hiraga
Academia,
I think that misses the point of what I was saying. Yes you can add to and extend the upper frequencies of the horn in the 604 but really that isn't the problem with them. It is the crossover region of the horn to cone driver. The horn is just to small to make it work down lower and the cone is breaking up at the crossover point. there really isn't much you can do baring replacing the small horn with a larger one and that would be more than a little difficult and would completely change the speakers character. The UREI speaker was an attempt to solve this problem but I can't say that the different horn and foam edge really changed the basic response of the somewhat small horn and large cone problem. I've always thought that the approach taken by Radian of using the cone as the horn surface makes more sense but then you have moving resonating surface that you are using as the horn itself. There is no perfect solution to the problem. A smaller cone would have smoothed the midrange but at the cost of the bottom end extension. For what its worth the 604 was a mighty fine speaker for its time.
I think that misses the point of what I was saying. Yes you can add to and extend the upper frequencies of the horn in the 604 but really that isn't the problem with them. It is the crossover region of the horn to cone driver. The horn is just to small to make it work down lower and the cone is breaking up at the crossover point. there really isn't much you can do baring replacing the small horn with a larger one and that would be more than a little difficult and would completely change the speakers character. The UREI speaker was an attempt to solve this problem but I can't say that the different horn and foam edge really changed the basic response of the somewhat small horn and large cone problem. I've always thought that the approach taken by Radian of using the cone as the horn surface makes more sense but then you have moving resonating surface that you are using as the horn itself. There is no perfect solution to the problem. A smaller cone would have smoothed the midrange but at the cost of the bottom end extension. For what its worth the 604 was a mighty fine speaker for its time.
I don't think I made myself clear.
I'm talking about using the 15" of the 604 up to 700 hz and crossover to the a horn/288 and then use the tweeter/802 (or replacement) in the 604 as a super tweeter for 9khz and up.
Capish?
I'm talking about using the 15" of the 604 up to 700 hz and crossover to the a horn/288 and then use the tweeter/802 (or replacement) in the 604 as a super tweeter for 9khz and up.
Capish?
Ogle,
Why then would you even consider starting with a 604, what a waste that would be. Just use one of the standard 15" cone drivers then, why waste a horn and compression driver by bypassing it completely and leaving it in front of the cone driver, that makes no sense at all to me.
Kind of like buying a Ferrari to use as a tractor, not exactly apropos to the end use.
Why then would you even consider starting with a 604, what a waste that would be. Just use one of the standard 15" cone drivers then, why waste a horn and compression driver by bypassing it completely and leaving it in front of the cone driver, that makes no sense at all to me.
Kind of like buying a Ferrari to use as a tractor, not exactly apropos to the end use.
I think he would use the coaxial HF for the top and have the mid horn above. Pretty sure Lynn O mentioned this on another forum.
phivates,
Okay I understand that concept and almost did that for my now ex-partners set of 604's. We didn't want to mess with the originality of the speakers though, they were really rare walnut cabinet enclosures for the home, way to valuable at the time to modify them. I would have added a small cone driven horn for that and forget about adding a large round horn above the 604, integration would have been more difficult, it would have made the usable distance from the speaker mush greater with the center to center distance. Don't forget these were really monitor speakers with an up front and in your face type of usage originally.
ps. the top end of that little horn and compression driver wasn't all that great, so to use it that way wouldn't solve much at all.
Okay I understand that concept and almost did that for my now ex-partners set of 604's. We didn't want to mess with the originality of the speakers though, they were really rare walnut cabinet enclosures for the home, way to valuable at the time to modify them. I would have added a small cone driven horn for that and forget about adding a large round horn above the 604, integration would have been more difficult, it would have made the usable distance from the speaker mush greater with the center to center distance. Don't forget these were really monitor speakers with an up front and in your face type of usage originally.
ps. the top end of that little horn and compression driver wasn't all that great, so to use it that way wouldn't solve much at all.
Once again, I didn't say that.
Do you know of any setup that recreates faithfully the sound of symphonic orchestra in a music hall with superb acoustics?
Will DIY gear recreate faithfully the sound of symphonic orchestra in a music hall with superb acoustics?
Well, if you enjoy doing that, you are welcomed.
I still prefer live concerts in a music hall.
To each ones' own.
BTW, a ticket costs me about £50 (on subscription and being senior citizen), no dinner and wine and gasoline + parking less than £5.
I can sell my present speakers and build DIY ones.
I'll do so only upon knowing before hand that they will sound better than my present ones.
I brought it up in this thread only to share my experience.
My speakers excel in natural reproduction of acoustic instruments and unamplified human voices.
AFAIK, no system in the world can reproduce faithfully the sound of symphonic orchestra in a music hall with superb acoustics.
Just broken off a few minutes from listening to Donizettis' live opera Anna Boleyn. Why not track it with me on Lyric FM from Eire.
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Thanks for your last post, Joshua. I was kind of puzzled why you were posting in a DIY forum in the first place, since the Bosendorfers are too expensive to modify and it would destroy their resale value in any event. If your none of your system is DIY at present, I'm not at all sure if DIY is for you.
As far as I can tell, the Bosendorfer speaker is unique, and reflects the vision of the designer. Only you can decide whether or not it's "the one" for you. I know it's the wrong type of loudspeaker for me; my design priorities are quite different, so I'm in not in a position to advise for or against.
My system is:
CD and DVD-A Transport: commercial and modified (Denon DV2900)
Source: commercial and unmodified (Monarchy N24)
Linestage: commercial and unmodified (Monarchy N24)
DIY Interconnect: (industrial Litz wire and cotton sleeving)
DIY Amplifier: designed-from-scratch PP 300B amplifier with custom transformers
DIY speaker cable: (industrial Litz wire and cotton sleeving)
DIY Loudspeaker: designed-from-scratch twin-transmission-line MTM direct-radiator
I've been designing my own loudspeakers since 1975, and my own electronics since 1995. The only commercial gear I buy is when I know the designer personally and have heard their gear for myself in my own system.
My luck buying commercial gear on the basis of magazine or Internet reviews (without an in-house audition) has been about 70~80% negative, and I pretty much always take a substantial financial loss when I do that.
The last equipment I bought from a dealer was the 55" Panasonic plasma HDTV, Salamander shelving, and a Dynaudio Contour 2.2 Center speaker. The Marantz pre/pro and amplifier was from Accessories4less, an Internet site for refurbished home-theater gear. I am not a typical customer, and dealers generally don't want to waste too much time on me.
I'm personal friends with Thom Mackris of Galibier Designs, have been part of the subjective evaluation process of his new turntable, and most likely will buy one when the design is finished. I also have a new-in-box Technics SL1200 in the basement, and will probably sell it as-is if I get (or build) Thom's new turntable.
Nobody can guarantee whether you will like DIY loudspeakers, amplifier, DACs, or turntables. The DIY community is all over the place: some folks are starting out and have tiny budgets, some folks want to copy commercial high-end equipment, and other people are professional designers who are designing new equipment as a proof-of-principle of a certain concept.
If a designer has been designing speakers for a while (more than one), they all have a "house sound" that reflects what the designer is trying to achieve. I don't have any words for it, but all of my speakers sound they were designed by me. All of Linkwitz's speakers sound like he designed them, even going back to the Beethoven's of the 1990's. Once a designer gets a few different speakers under their belt, they can reliably achieve a certain kind of sound; it's all in the design priorities combined with a personal aesthetic.
Consumers are outside the design loop; they haven't experienced the inevitable tradeoffs of speaker design, and experienced the (sometimes emotional) ups and downs of the development cycle. About one-third of my efforts are failures and have to be abandoned ... this is about the industry average, by the way. Most designers won't talk about the set-aside projects or outright disasters unless you know them personally.
Advanced DIY (not just money-saving attempts or copying) has all of these risks rolled into one. Lots of money in drivers, lots of money in cabinets that might end up as firewood, and most of all, lots of time, energy, love and devotion. All of that gets thrown away if a project fails. All you have left is the experience ... mostly what not to do again.
If you are not willing to risk that, stay away from experimental high-cost DIY projects (which are the only kind I do). Gary Dahl was willing to take the risk because he knows me personally (he was a neighbor when I was Washington State), knows what I like, and knows what my design priorities are. We also consulted with each other by telephone and e-mail as they went through several cycles of development, with my suggestion to replace the AE TD-15M with the GPA 416 Alnico, and try the Beryllium Radian 745Neo. Gary was the one that moved forward with the compact closed-box for the GPA 416, supplemented by the AE 15" subwoofer with AE passive radiators.
Anyone that doesn't know me is taking a much larger risk, and I usually discourage them, since they don't know what I like, and it's been a long time since Audionics speakers were on the market. (I now consider my speakers at Audionics as somewhat misguided, although hindsight is retrospective, and I can't blame myself for what I didn't know then.)
As far as I can tell, the Bosendorfer speaker is unique, and reflects the vision of the designer. Only you can decide whether or not it's "the one" for you. I know it's the wrong type of loudspeaker for me; my design priorities are quite different, so I'm in not in a position to advise for or against.
My system is:
CD and DVD-A Transport: commercial and modified (Denon DV2900)
Source: commercial and unmodified (Monarchy N24)
Linestage: commercial and unmodified (Monarchy N24)
DIY Interconnect: (industrial Litz wire and cotton sleeving)
DIY Amplifier: designed-from-scratch PP 300B amplifier with custom transformers
DIY speaker cable: (industrial Litz wire and cotton sleeving)
DIY Loudspeaker: designed-from-scratch twin-transmission-line MTM direct-radiator
I've been designing my own loudspeakers since 1975, and my own electronics since 1995. The only commercial gear I buy is when I know the designer personally and have heard their gear for myself in my own system.
My luck buying commercial gear on the basis of magazine or Internet reviews (without an in-house audition) has been about 70~80% negative, and I pretty much always take a substantial financial loss when I do that.
The last equipment I bought from a dealer was the 55" Panasonic plasma HDTV, Salamander shelving, and a Dynaudio Contour 2.2 Center speaker. The Marantz pre/pro and amplifier was from Accessories4less, an Internet site for refurbished home-theater gear. I am not a typical customer, and dealers generally don't want to waste too much time on me.
I'm personal friends with Thom Mackris of Galibier Designs, have been part of the subjective evaluation process of his new turntable, and most likely will buy one when the design is finished. I also have a new-in-box Technics SL1200 in the basement, and will probably sell it as-is if I get (or build) Thom's new turntable.
Nobody can guarantee whether you will like DIY loudspeakers, amplifier, DACs, or turntables. The DIY community is all over the place: some folks are starting out and have tiny budgets, some folks want to copy commercial high-end equipment, and other people are professional designers who are designing new equipment as a proof-of-principle of a certain concept.
If a designer has been designing speakers for a while (more than one), they all have a "house sound" that reflects what the designer is trying to achieve. I don't have any words for it, but all of my speakers sound they were designed by me. All of Linkwitz's speakers sound like he designed them, even going back to the Beethoven's of the 1990's. Once a designer gets a few different speakers under their belt, they can reliably achieve a certain kind of sound; it's all in the design priorities combined with a personal aesthetic.
Consumers are outside the design loop; they haven't experienced the inevitable tradeoffs of speaker design, and experienced the (sometimes emotional) ups and downs of the development cycle. About one-third of my efforts are failures and have to be abandoned ... this is about the industry average, by the way. Most designers won't talk about the set-aside projects or outright disasters unless you know them personally.
Advanced DIY (not just money-saving attempts or copying) has all of these risks rolled into one. Lots of money in drivers, lots of money in cabinets that might end up as firewood, and most of all, lots of time, energy, love and devotion. All of that gets thrown away if a project fails. All you have left is the experience ... mostly what not to do again.
If you are not willing to risk that, stay away from experimental high-cost DIY projects (which are the only kind I do). Gary Dahl was willing to take the risk because he knows me personally (he was a neighbor when I was Washington State), knows what I like, and knows what my design priorities are. We also consulted with each other by telephone and e-mail as they went through several cycles of development, with my suggestion to replace the AE TD-15M with the GPA 416 Alnico, and try the Beryllium Radian 745Neo. Gary was the one that moved forward with the compact closed-box for the GPA 416, supplemented by the AE 15" subwoofer with AE passive radiators.
Anyone that doesn't know me is taking a much larger risk, and I usually discourage them, since they don't know what I like, and it's been a long time since Audionics speakers were on the market. (I now consider my speakers at Audionics as somewhat misguided, although hindsight is retrospective, and I can't blame myself for what I didn't know then.)
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Hi all, I peeked this thread and saw that Lynno opened it over 8 years ago with a post including the words "The Ariel is over 12 years old now", and "a successor to the Ariel and ME2".
263 pages, 13000+ posts, and exactly 100 months later, .... what a thread! An exemplar (pun - for those with long memories) of what makes diyaudio.com a great resource for audio enthusiasts. And the last post, before this one? Written by Lynno, the thread starter. Wow!
One quick question please. What is the latest thinking on the topic of this thread, i.e. what is the successor to the Ariel? And where does it get described in final form in this thread?
Regards to everyone involved.
263 pages, 13000+ posts, and exactly 100 months later, .... what a thread! An exemplar (pun - for those with long memories) of what makes diyaudio.com a great resource for audio enthusiasts. And the last post, before this one? Written by Lynno, the thread starter. Wow!
One quick question please. What is the latest thinking on the topic of this thread, i.e. what is the successor to the Ariel? And where does it get described in final form in this thread?
Regards to everyone involved.