No, but I imagine only because so few have experienced the aforementioned Altec/GPA 414 or many of the pioneer's original drivers regardless of size, usable high SQ BW. 😉
Otherwise ones with a < ~ 2" diameter VC, though imagine none exist new in 12", 15" frames nowadays nor available vintage at reasonable pricing either. 🙁
Looks like the Dayton Reference 12" variants meet your Fs and based on their spec data do not start breaking up until just above your 1200 Hz pass frequency. You would want a steep rolloff though. Also any 12" is going to beam at the upper frequencies unless that is OK.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-445-dayton-audio-rss315hfa-8-specifications-47083.pdf
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-445-dayton-audio-rss315hfa-8-specifications-47083.pdf
I would never use a 12” to try to reproduce anything over mid to upper bass — use a mid woofer for the upper bass thru mid frequencies and a sub to complement it
I would and do.
Listen to it for hours every day.
Especially for me sitting 10-15' away all the time.
Some are hot for the dayton 12" pa310-8, cross it steep at 1.2khz though, but not much bass (more than mine though).
More than mine with a qts .29 and Fs of 40hz, so maybe a box with a tuning at FS for F9 = 40hz, boost there for no sub, or add a sub....
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-PA310-8-12-Pro-Woofer-295-032?quantity=1
Listen to it for hours every day.
Especially for me sitting 10-15' away all the time.
Some are hot for the dayton 12" pa310-8, cross it steep at 1.2khz though, but not much bass (more than mine though).
More than mine with a qts .29 and Fs of 40hz, so maybe a box with a tuning at FS for F9 = 40hz, boost there for no sub, or add a sub....
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-PA310-8-12-Pro-Woofer-295-032?quantity=1
So a 12 is the best driver to reproduce a clarinet while also kettle drums at the same time ? How about intermodulation and diffraction ?
There are also the 12" and larger pro drivers that are made to use a horn driver through the pole/magnet for a coaxial setup. Those cover midrange by necessity. I was looking at one recently but I cannot remember the manufacturer or model number.
Everything is a compromise.
Even my double 15's crossed to 2' wide horn, you can modulate the voices with bass rap.
But it had more slam and punch than any 3-way I've ever had.
A 3-way has less intermod, absolutely, even with shorting rings, copper caps, etc.
But you now have a crossover point mid 200-500hz.
2-way vs 3-way, each are their own thing.
Is a smaller midrange driver better 500-1.2khz, more pistonic ?
Sure, no argument there.
But we are talking a 12" 2-way here.
Even my double 15's crossed to 2' wide horn, you can modulate the voices with bass rap.
But it had more slam and punch than any 3-way I've ever had.
A 3-way has less intermod, absolutely, even with shorting rings, copper caps, etc.
But you now have a crossover point mid 200-500hz.
2-way vs 3-way, each are their own thing.
Is a smaller midrange driver better 500-1.2khz, more pistonic ?
Sure, no argument there.
But we are talking a 12" 2-way here.
Using a sub for 100 hz down avoids needing 12 in woofers so a mid woof plus tweeter covers everything above 100
maybe the 12" jbl differential drive
https://www.parts-express.com/JBL-2262HPL-338312-004X-12-Neo-Woofer-294-450?quantity=1
Not really, not at my volumes.
I need to move some air all the way down to 100hz.
But I come from double 15 setups...................
Had 4x18 to 4x15 to horn to piezo, scaled down to double 15/horn, and now happy at a simple 12" 2-way.
you can see distortion plots of 8" on audiosciencereview around 100hz and 96db, it ain't pretty.
https://www.parts-express.com/JBL-2262HPL-338312-004X-12-Neo-Woofer-294-450?quantity=1
Not really, not at my volumes.
I need to move some air all the way down to 100hz.
But I come from double 15 setups...................
Had 4x18 to 4x15 to horn to piezo, scaled down to double 15/horn, and now happy at a simple 12" 2-way.
you can see distortion plots of 8" on audiosciencereview around 100hz and 96db, it ain't pretty.
To be fair, my 6" revel smokes my 12" 2-way in resolution, detail.
But not enough bass for me to sit 10' away, let alone 15.....
And I don't want to run a subwoofer either.
It is an option, but I love my 12's too much, they are simple, and ring most of my enjoyment bells, withing my music, volume, room, distance, etc......
But not enough bass for me to sit 10' away, let alone 15.....
And I don't want to run a subwoofer either.
It is an option, but I love my 12's too much, they are simple, and ring most of my enjoyment bells, withing my music, volume, room, distance, etc......
By 2-way resolution detail assume your referring to the midrange freq.? "Smokes" and "not enough" seem at odds, or you're willing to accept a big compromise in the area of sound where the human ear is most sensitive, and vocals and many instruments have their primary frequencies. Why not run a good sub, there are many that are low distortion plus save cabinet size and allow flexible placement? Plus what is the dB level you listen to mostly? Sure you can get speakers to go to 100 dB and above, but this is above the safe zone for human hearing for any extended period, and safer levels well below that still allow for enjoyable dynamic range (of course some recordings are too compressed but that's another matter). I was a DIYer of big 3+ cu. ft. cabinets with big woofers in the 70s (think grab a good Bozak 12" and knock together the plywood and particle board). Advances in drivers of course allow smaller drivers like 8s with long excursions at low distortion to equal 12s in the amount of air they move, with smaller cabinets (less cabinet resonances).
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The magnet pole piece going through the middle of the voice coil acts like short-circuited secondary winding of a transformer, except that the losses are quite small because of the air gap. Copper shorting rings can make over-hanging coils behave a bit like they're under-hung by extending the losses from eddy currents out across the length of the coil so there's less modulation when the coil moves about.
But with high Xmax, there are competing needs that get harder to balance out. If only 1/3 of the coil is in the magnet gap, efficiency goes way down, and copper rings reduce efficiency further. Hence, a case for using pro mid-woofers with low Xmax. Food for thought.
...
There's also a question of how the sound is affected by the extra damping from copper rings. It won't be perfectly linear, so there could be harmonics added.
But with high Xmax, there are competing needs that get harder to balance out. If only 1/3 of the coil is in the magnet gap, efficiency goes way down, and copper rings reduce efficiency further. Hence, a case for using pro mid-woofers with low Xmax. Food for thought.
...
There's also a question of how the sound is affected by the extra damping from copper rings. It won't be perfectly linear, so there could be harmonics added.
Which drivers only have 1/3 of the coil in the magnetic field at max excursion? Larger magnets (esp. longer) with suspensions designed for that issue mitigate it. Driver designers have know this issue for decades.
Hi,
Yes, that´s a nice driver. I would suggest the EMS B 12 either PM or FC for use up to 1.4k. The Sonido 12" is also interesting.
All the best
Mattes
I believe this is incorrect. A 12" driver is about 125% larger than an 8" driver. The larger surface area of the 12" driver couples with the atmosphere better than the 8" driver no matter how much more excursion the 8" driver may have. The additional excursion doesn't make up for the 12" drivers' larger surface area.
An 12" has a sd about 532.4cm2
An 8" has a sd about 210cm2
So A rule of thumb is 2 x 8's are a squeek less (area) than a 12"...............
I do like to thump and bump it from time to time.
I'm more of a midbass fan these days, seeking the punch.
Think TLC from the 80's playing "creep" or even anything growly like stained or Alice'n'chains.
I just like a big 2-way, always have.
The house usually listens from far away (15').
I like the jump when watching movies without surround.
Need a bigger speaker for that.
Enjoyment versus analytical, that's where we are.
I use the smaller speaker for when I am actively focusing on the music sitting less than 10', or sometimes late at night so I don't disturb the house.
Could I do a crossover to some subs, sure.
Have my eyes on the rythmik L12, but then I can't use my 35 year old receiver......................
And the house would be irritated much of the time..........
But back on topic !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
An 8" has a sd about 210cm2
So A rule of thumb is 2 x 8's are a squeek less (area) than a 12"...............
I do like to thump and bump it from time to time.
I'm more of a midbass fan these days, seeking the punch.
Think TLC from the 80's playing "creep" or even anything growly like stained or Alice'n'chains.
I just like a big 2-way, always have.
The house usually listens from far away (15').
I like the jump when watching movies without surround.
Need a bigger speaker for that.
Enjoyment versus analytical, that's where we are.
I use the smaller speaker for when I am actively focusing on the music sitting less than 10', or sometimes late at night so I don't disturb the house.
Could I do a crossover to some subs, sure.
Have my eyes on the rythmik L12, but then I can't use my 35 year old receiver......................
And the house would be irritated much of the time..........
But back on topic !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The idea is to create a classic 12” 2 way with a xo circa 1200hz
right now my xo is circa 1900hz which makes the speaker sound unrefined, will try a 1200hz xo
ofc such designs comes with advantages and disadvantages
That is exactly what I use right now (1.2khz crossed 12" to a horn).
A 10" 2-way has basically fallen off the map except for devore or the seas kit.
I didn't even know they made 12" 2-ways years ago...............
A 10" 2-way has basically fallen off the map except for devore or the seas kit.
I didn't even know they made 12" 2-ways years ago...............
What XO do you use now? You could try something like a 1st order + notch filter for the bass.