Best horn/compression drivers for music?

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#21
limono said:
Bret
I know that you know much more about horns than me so why do you ask 😀
Azura , Oris like "horns" horn load the driver only in a narrow band maybe 300-2K the rest of it is a direct radiator compromised by horn mouths .Try to match a tweeter for such a huge horn and time align it.
What is correct size of horn for coax compression driver ? All I saw are 200Hz huge horns . My ignorant answer would be why tweeters in midbass horns under perform?
I love tannoys and won't say a bad word about them.
I would suggest the OP to try to listen a few horn systems it may not be his cup after all. People are very opinionated on this subject and he has to evaluate himself the way and solutions . My friend and sound engineer hates TAD drivers because they are supposedly "harsh & unpleasant " sounding , the other sources state that they are like glycerin carmel sounding and useless in demanding application. Some love altecs and some say they are tonally dead and all modern compression drivers are for Hip-hop clients . Go figure .
Bret I don't think I know enough to debate you on the subject. I tried "full range" horns and I know they are not for me.
Regards, L
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From what I've read, you don't know much about compression driver, flares or coaxes (including coaxial CD's). So how can you say something is "inherently flawed"? THAT was the point of my questioning. Speakers are a myriad of compromises and a coax (pro coaxes have CD's for HF, like your beloved Tannoys - something you seem to be unaware of) in an Azura may effect a better solution that two seperate drivers in two seperate flares for a number of reasons. I don't like FR's like Lowthers either, but this solution may give a good result. Might not too, but I'll find out when I TRY.

Oh, and last of all, the comments above on drivers based upon odd sounding second or third hand comments from others makes no sense. If TAD's are harsh, why aren't you reading about that everywhere? Also remember that 130dB in a stadium rig at max, is not how they'll sound sub-1W in most domestic environments.

Go back and run some searches and do a ton more reading upon the subject.
 
#22
Brett said:

From what I've read, you don't know much about compression driver, flares or coaxes (including coaxial CD's). So how can you say something is "inherently flawed"? THAT was the point of my questioning. Speakers are a myriad of compromises and a coax (pro coaxes have CD's for HF, like your beloved Tannoys - something you seem to be unaware of) in an Azura may effect a better solution that two seperate drivers in two seperate flares for a number of reasons. I don't like FR's like Lowthers either, but this solution may give a good result. Might not too, but I'll find out when I TRY.

Oh, and last of all, the comments above on drivers based upon odd sounding second or third hand comments from others makes no sense. If TAD's are harsh, why aren't you reading about that everywhere? Also remember that 130dB in a stadium rig at max, is not how they'll sound sub-1W in most domestic environments.

Go back and run some searches and do a ton more reading upon the subject.
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OK ! Thank You
Regards, L

PS
I heard TADs in CAR horns - they were harsh -sorry . I also heard Edgar Horns (titans), Exemplar horns , Oris and Azura horns , Klipshorns , Cogent , Patricians, Cain &Cain Horns ,Avantgardes (Duos) and variety of BLH lowther/ fostex FR's enough to make up my mind what works and what doesn't without trying.
 
#24
Brett said:
No. You don't have enough experience of the drivers themselves, outside of complete implementations to know. Get some drivers and then try each one on individual flares before making blanket statements.
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My only statement was that proper horn is 2-3 octave device . (the rest of the plot is just implication of that simple fact ) If for for you it is a blank statement I must have missed that chapter (like many others) .I did not say anything about drivers accept suggesting OP to try to listen or research the options as people are highly opinionated on the subject .
So far accept contradicting my posts you haven't add much to the thread ,so go ahead express your bias and solutions you like and suggest , because I got impression that almost everything sounds good (and my experience with complete implementations are that almost everything sounds not so good) Just forget my posts and give some sound advice to the OP. OK?
 
#25
I'll add one other thing to the thread..

Here you'll get a good subjective description of a properly setup mid-horn (..at the very bottom of the page "My impressions").

http://www.arduman.com/aa/Sayfalar/lecleach/lecleach.htm

A few things of note:

1. imaging should not be "forward" of the speakers for most recordings (unless there are some phase tricks in the recording).

2. a good 2 inch compression mid (like the selenium) should be superior to the TAD 2001's that are used here (at least up to 3 kHz).

3. Jean-Michel uses a rather innovative 18 db octave crossover - AND he actually has the crossover at a higher 8 kHz (..which could pose more problems with combing.. and certainly will narrow dispersion in the critical 3-7 kHz range).

4. Finally note that Jean-Michel is the one responsible for the excellent round-over horn progression that the Azurahorn is based on.
 
#27
limono said:
Just forget my posts
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That is the only sensible thing you've said so fat, especially as you've avoided answering the comments made on coaxes. I have no further interest in discussing anything with you.

PS: the actual experience of doing something far outweighs the handwaving theorising of armchair knowitalls.
 
#30
SamL,

useful info since getting the horn driver is only half the battle.

I suppose an analogy between box speakers and horns could be that the box in a regular speaker is to the horn in a horn system.

Can anyone give some ideas of the relative sound and theoretical difference between Constant directivity and the various exponential type flares? (at primer level, not Geddes level)

In reading about the unity horn it seems that the CD horn is used because some elaborate electronic EQ and calculations are used.

But for mere mortals, maybe a Tractrix style is more of a sure-thing at getting a decent result?

The problem I'm starting to see is that box building is relatively easy compared to horn building. Getting into horns may actually be MORE intense in the level of woodworking/forming skills needed.

Or are there readily available commercial horns? And is it just better to get the horn sold by the compression driver manufacturer?
 
#34
pinkmouse said:
:cop:

Limono, we do not allow personal insults in this forum, so I have removed your last post. This is your last warning.
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OK Chief.
At least I was trying to be respectful and polite this time...Not enough though
😀
I regret posting at all so if you can remove my posts please do so .( I don't know if I have that option)
 
#35
Daveis said:

The problem I'm starting to see is that box building is relatively easy compared to horn building. Getting into horns may actually be MORE intense in the level of woodworking/forming skills needed.

Or are there readily available commercial horns? And is it just better to get the horn sold by the compression driver manufacturer?
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We've given you good commercial horns. IF you want to "turn" your own you'll need to use this program to get the flare for your horn:

http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/dmcbean/

Again, use the Le Cleac'h flare for your design (its arguably the best for lower freq. cut-offs AND it can be fabricated fairly easily.. as opposed to an OS for instance).

You won't have much luck finding a *good* modern horn with a passband that extends usably to 500 Hz. The Unity based Yorkville loudspeakers would be your best bet.. BUT IF you are willing to "work at it", you can achieve a much better solution (with the suggestions I made).
 
#37
Daveis said:
Look at http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=20386

Its clear to me now that high dollar dome tweeters are completely outperformed by OS waveguide and compression drivers.
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Both Non-linear and linear distortion *can* be MUCH better - especially at lower "domestic" spl's. (..often linear isn't quite as good, but non-linear is markedly superior for everything but 2nd order distortion.)

But as that thread points out - limited directivity can be a real problem. It is NOT however due strictly to room reflections (as most surmise), but rather is primarily based on actually hearing (or in this case hearing the absence of) the horizontal polar pattern of direct sound - particularly in that critical 2-8 kHz region (..and actually I think its critical down to about 800 Hz despite our decreasing ability to detect dispersion based spl-changes as freq.s lower) . Of course also as the thread points out, you could use an identical driver/horn wired in reverse phase pointing to the rear to add to the polar pattern and reverberant energy.

Additionally (like the "room reflection thing"), a diffraction based horn is not necessarily worse than a horn without a "diffraction lens". (..though Earl would argue that higher order modes do increase with such a design.) What people fail to remember is that compression drivers are functionally based on diffraction. The REAL key is how controlled that diffraction is in the time domain (i.e. how badly it screws up linear decay). IF linear decay for the horn and compression driver is good AND uniform within an acceptable dispersion pattern - then that horn/driver has the *potential* to be good in a loudspeaker for music reproduction.
 
#38
pinkmouse said:
:cop:

Limono, we do not allow personal insults in this forum, so I have removed your last post. This is your last warning.
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It may be well known fact here but I'm fairly knew so I have to ask if the poster I offended so much Bret=Bert ;Bert Doppelberg manufacturer and owner of BD Design horn shop pushing his latest coax compression driver based Orphean horn invention on market. If that is indeed the case his posts and attitude is no surprise to me and I'm not offended .
Regards to all
 
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