Hum.... Lemme rephrase that:
"Any good quality part will sound fine" but some part may sound finer than others, because: "The output transformer and front end, plus circuit determine how it sounds more than any other part" but these main culprits may not cover up the deficiencies of the "other parts".
There's a fine line between "sound fine" and "sound great".
P.S.: any thoughts about the Mundorf ECAP? Anybody?
"Any good quality part will sound fine" but some part may sound finer than others, because: "The output transformer and front end, plus circuit determine how it sounds more than any other part" but these main culprits may not cover up the deficiencies of the "other parts".
There's a fine line between "sound fine" and "sound great".
P.S.: any thoughts about the Mundorf ECAP? Anybody?
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It could have been worse, could have been mounted in open flames.
Well, no. I have not been able to honestly hear any difference between various good quality capacitors. I have also not been able to measure any differences between them in an operating amplifier. This of course means they have also passed testing before installation.
When I say "sound fine" I mean that they sound as good as the circuit allows. I really do not want to influence people, but expectation bias plays a far, far greater role in determining what sounds "the best". I'll be honest with you, if a part not in the front end can make a circuit "sound great", the circuit has issues. That is excepting the output transformer of course. It is an imperfect part that will always affect sound quality and performance. Guess what? They can be measured as well, but it is the interaction between that and the circuit that can play a large role.
In any amplifier / preamplifier circuit, the input circuit compares the output with the input signal and will impart the greatest character to the sound unless there is something it can't correct for. The more linear that section is (everything else held equal), the lower the distortion will be and the cleaner whatever it is will sound. The higher the amount of feedback you can use, as long as the circuit remains linear the lower the distortion will be and the better it will sound. However applying feedback to a bad circuit only sounds worse. Having an output transformer also limits how much feedback you can use before things become unstable.
What I just said flies in the face of the "high end" designers (them's fight'n words) who are afraid of measuring performance. Even the math supports what I just said. So does many years of experience in service and also design (yup, I design stuff too).
When I say "sound fine" I mean that they sound as good as the circuit allows. I really do not want to influence people, but expectation bias plays a far, far greater role in determining what sounds "the best". I'll be honest with you, if a part not in the front end can make a circuit "sound great", the circuit has issues. That is excepting the output transformer of course. It is an imperfect part that will always affect sound quality and performance. Guess what? They can be measured as well, but it is the interaction between that and the circuit that can play a large role.
In any amplifier / preamplifier circuit, the input circuit compares the output with the input signal and will impart the greatest character to the sound unless there is something it can't correct for. The more linear that section is (everything else held equal), the lower the distortion will be and the cleaner whatever it is will sound. The higher the amount of feedback you can use, as long as the circuit remains linear the lower the distortion will be and the better it will sound. However applying feedback to a bad circuit only sounds worse. Having an output transformer also limits how much feedback you can use before things become unstable.
What I just said flies in the face of the "high end" designers (them's fight'n words) who are afraid of measuring performance. Even the math supports what I just said. So does many years of experience in service and also design (yup, I design stuff too).
Size would be the probable problem there, polypropylene in the value you want. PS isn't made that high and would be massive!
That circuit has other limiting factors that overshadow one cathode bypass cap.
That circuit has other limiting factors that overshadow one cathode bypass cap.
Wondering aloud John, do you know if there is any physical difference in construction or measured performance characteristics from their Nichicon Standard Line that qualifies/differentiates them as "Audio Grade"? Besides their marketing, of course.
Thx
There are differences, I am not a cap designer so except for obvious differences like leads (steel or copper) I cannot exactly say. But I once called Nichicon at their home office and I was overwhelmed with the subtle differences in each style and voltage range by one of the application engineers. Ears tell us that there are significant differences, even if we can not see or measure them easier.
Hey John! Happy to see you alive and kicking 🙂
Any plan to attend the High End Munich May 19-22? If you go I go.
Thanks for the caps suggestions: it's for the cathode bypassing of a Leak ST60 EL34 PP tube amp, and the axial types are preferred. Looks like nobody makes them anymore. The amp itself is not great with a dominant pole at 3KHz, and a blurrily vintage sound to match. I wonder where it got its reputation from? Anyway, this is its last chance if I can't fix it up good, I'll eBay it.
I agree if you keep the capacitance value consistent, and compare different models with different construction methods then I can't believe there is anyone who would not hear the difference in any reasonable quality amplifier. I am not sure these differences are easily measured to predictably correlate to sound quality preferences, however if you compare then you can easily hear changes good and bad according to your preferences.
Because this is a 'lytic thread, here's a couple of datapoints: I bought my McIntosh, used, in 1978. Tested the main caps 10 years ago, and check out the "D" (dissipation factor). Everything exceeds specs!
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Vishay makes axial elektrolyts, if this is what You need, look at Mouser.
Thanks.
Just checked, they also have the Epcos, Kemet, and Vishay/Sprague. I'm not a fan of the blue Vishay/BC though, I had 1 that went short in my mckinnie pre-preamp and almost took out some of John's priceless 2SJ72/2SK147.
Just checked, they also have the Epcos, Kemet, and Vishay/Sprague. I'm not a fan of the blue Vishay/BC though, I had 1 that went short in my mckinnie pre-preamp and almost took out some of John's priceless 2SJ72/2SK147.
Any capacitor can have a fault. That's why there is something called a failure rate. You can't call a line of caps bad over a single failure.
The worst are the Philips caps with the split plastic coating. But those are better than the no-name brands out there.
If the circuit runs open loop, maybe you might hear different caps (I have my doubts). If the circuit uses feedback, the error correction in the first tube or transistor will greatly reduce distortion. If it is a bad circuit, all bets are off. Please think about how these circuits operate and consider what is being said. Also consider that "the best capacitor type" may not be the best capacitor to use in a certain circuit. Many factors need to be considered. Size, vibration susceptibility, temperature sensitivity and dissipation factor. You can't blindly grab "the best capacitor" and use it successfully in every application. Not to mention when they don't make any difference, the waste of money. I'm not being cheap, I am being reasonable. I have a couple large cabinets and some boxes full of polystyrene and polypropylene capacitors. More with ceramic (NP0 / C0G John) and Mica (Silver), not to mention every other capacitor type in various sizes and styles. Thousands of dollars sitting in trays folks. I will use the most appropriate capacitor for the job, and I do continuously test in different circuits measuring distortion as a spectrum.
I'm not just repeating crap I read on the internet or guess at. I'll say it again, expectation bias is at the root of most reports.
The worst are the Philips caps with the split plastic coating. But those are better than the no-name brands out there.
If the circuit runs open loop, maybe you might hear different caps (I have my doubts). If the circuit uses feedback, the error correction in the first tube or transistor will greatly reduce distortion. If it is a bad circuit, all bets are off. Please think about how these circuits operate and consider what is being said. Also consider that "the best capacitor type" may not be the best capacitor to use in a certain circuit. Many factors need to be considered. Size, vibration susceptibility, temperature sensitivity and dissipation factor. You can't blindly grab "the best capacitor" and use it successfully in every application. Not to mention when they don't make any difference, the waste of money. I'm not being cheap, I am being reasonable. I have a couple large cabinets and some boxes full of polystyrene and polypropylene capacitors. More with ceramic (NP0 / C0G John) and Mica (Silver), not to mention every other capacitor type in various sizes and styles. Thousands of dollars sitting in trays folks. I will use the most appropriate capacitor for the job, and I do continuously test in different circuits measuring distortion as a spectrum.
I'm not just repeating crap I read on the internet or guess at. I'll say it again, expectation bias is at the root of most reports.
I have used Nichicon KZ as power rail bypasses along with Nichicon Gold Tune in power supplies and they work extremely well. For signal path I use Nichicon Muse ES BP or if the value is small enough, I replace with a WIMA MKP polypropylene. Panasonic ECWF polypropylenes are also very reliable and clean sounding caps. I tend to prefer best clarity and detail from signal path caps. Silmics can soften sound so I would say they are best used in digital circuits.
Just my 2 cents.
Just my 2 cents.
never lose the fact that psu capacitors store voltage and depending on load current flow determined the ripple voltage...this is all there is to capacitors, how you enjoy it or not is entirely up to you....anecdotes are fine....i have no problem with them....
coupling caps otoh must never have ac voltage drops...
coupling caps otoh must never have ac voltage drops...
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