The view that the UK listeners prefer to spend the majority of their money on the source and amps, and less on speakers has its origins in several places; primarily when a certain Scotish gentleman who I shall refrain from naming in effect pinched a turntable design from Ariston (the RD11), and launched his own version. (OK, this is contentious. I still harbour deep suspicions on this score though, despite the fact that really, until the Gyrodek, most supecnded sub-chassis belt-drives were built in pretty much the same way pioneered by Thorens and Dunlop. However, I digress.)
When he launched his new transcriptor, being a clever sort of chap, our aforementioned friend realised he could make a mint of money by attempting a paragim shift in the opinion that the speakers were the most important part of the audio chain, which until that point still held good in the UK, and he latched onto the old 'Garbage-in, Garbage-out' phrase. It's a fair point, especially with vinyl LP, where the more you can spend on the source the better, as these things are really precision analogue measuring instruments, and the higher the engineering precision, the better, which doesn't come cheap. The cult of the Linn LP12 Sondek was born, this view was whipped to a frenzy by the highly partisan UK hifi press in the 1980s (Hifi Answers, The Flat Response etc).
It doesn't quite hold true any more though, mostly since CD replaced vinyl as the major music carrier, since the differences between CD players of different prices are much smaller than the differences between turntables at differnt price points. Also, even at the height of the Flat Earth period, it wan't always so much that UK buyers spent less on their speakers -we just tended to buy smaller standmount types, like the Linn Kan, the Celestion SL600, the Epos ES14 and Accoustic Energy's AE1, which were hardly loose-change money. For the true Flat Earther, the only turntable was the LP12, the only amps were Naims, the only tuner were Revox or Naim etc. Eveything else was rubbish, or, worse still, Japanese, and intended only for the tasteless, and the cloth-eared, like Americans. Bass was irrelevant unless you could afford Linn Isobariks, and imaging was a myth. Luckily, the Flat Earther is a now almost extinct breed, though some aspects of their views -that smaller speaker cabinets had an advantage over larger ones in having greater rigidity for example were true enough. Also, in the UK, we tend to have smaller rooms, so smaller speakers are usually more appropriate, though the lack of bass was probably taken to extremes. In recent years, we've seen a move back toward a more balanced approach, and even heading toward the old method of spending more on the speakers than on the source or amps once again. In the digital age, there's much to be said for it, and it's a view I wholeheartedly support, providing you choose sensibly, because the ghost of the Flat Earther still has a point -your system can only ever be as good as what you feed it. £6000 of Quad electrostatics will not sing if fed a 96Kbs MP3 file, but powered by £2500 of Audio Research integrated and fed via a £1000 Arcam CD192 you'd be laughing. Consider the Flat Earther as the Ghost of Audio Past, there to remind us, lest we forget!
That's the quick version
Best
Scott
When he launched his new transcriptor, being a clever sort of chap, our aforementioned friend realised he could make a mint of money by attempting a paragim shift in the opinion that the speakers were the most important part of the audio chain, which until that point still held good in the UK, and he latched onto the old 'Garbage-in, Garbage-out' phrase. It's a fair point, especially with vinyl LP, where the more you can spend on the source the better, as these things are really precision analogue measuring instruments, and the higher the engineering precision, the better, which doesn't come cheap. The cult of the Linn LP12 Sondek was born, this view was whipped to a frenzy by the highly partisan UK hifi press in the 1980s (Hifi Answers, The Flat Response etc).
It doesn't quite hold true any more though, mostly since CD replaced vinyl as the major music carrier, since the differences between CD players of different prices are much smaller than the differences between turntables at differnt price points. Also, even at the height of the Flat Earth period, it wan't always so much that UK buyers spent less on their speakers -we just tended to buy smaller standmount types, like the Linn Kan, the Celestion SL600, the Epos ES14 and Accoustic Energy's AE1, which were hardly loose-change money. For the true Flat Earther, the only turntable was the LP12, the only amps were Naims, the only tuner
That's the quick version
Best
Scott
PaulSpencer - I agree with you - however I think that DIY amplifiers also offer great value in reducing the cost of owning a good audio system, apart from making it more fun.
The audio market, at least from a perspective in my country with it's excahnge rate etc, seems to be dividing into crap plastic "hifi" and high end stuff. I think the reason for this is the "success": of 5.1 channel recievers. There being no middle ground in terms of cost for us we are forced into 1 of 3 situations.
1. Biting the bullet & forking out the TOM. In my country the bottom of the range NAD costs about 2 Months of the average workers salary.
2. Accepting crap quality sound
3. Building your own.
I choose DIY for both speakers and amps.
Scottmoose - That is a very interesting anecdote. I spent years when I was a kid fighting with the "Audiophile" shops here in South Africa on this issue. Now I know where it started
The audio market, at least from a perspective in my country with it's excahnge rate etc, seems to be dividing into crap plastic "hifi" and high end stuff. I think the reason for this is the "success": of 5.1 channel recievers. There being no middle ground in terms of cost for us we are forced into 1 of 3 situations.
1. Biting the bullet & forking out the TOM. In my country the bottom of the range NAD costs about 2 Months of the average workers salary.
2. Accepting crap quality sound
3. Building your own.
I choose DIY for both speakers and amps.
Scottmoose - That is a very interesting anecdote. I spent years when I was a kid fighting with the "Audiophile" shops here in South Africa on this issue. Now I know where it started
speakers for rock
A thing I always keep in mind is that most of the inovative producers of the now iconic "rock" sound monitored their creations upon fifteen inch two way monitors built by such as Altec JBL Tannoy and EV, one of the most used control room monitors was the JBL 4310 that became the Century L100 in domestic form.
Peter Townsensd apparently upon recieving Jim Marshalls amp turned both the treble and bass controls to full boost to get the sound he wanted.
In short a "rock" speaker needs to play very loud with little distortion, the only distortion being that produced by said Marshalls, and a 60Hz. "punch" peak is also desirable, although not strictly pc.
A thing I always keep in mind is that most of the inovative producers of the now iconic "rock" sound monitored their creations upon fifteen inch two way monitors built by such as Altec JBL Tannoy and EV, one of the most used control room monitors was the JBL 4310 that became the Century L100 in domestic form.
Peter Townsensd apparently upon recieving Jim Marshalls amp turned both the treble and bass controls to full boost to get the sound he wanted.
In short a "rock" speaker needs to play very loud with little distortion, the only distortion being that produced by said Marshalls, and a 60Hz. "punch" peak is also desirable, although not strictly pc.
Ross, it seems that things are very different in your country then. Here in Australia, there are amps that are cheaper than the cost of the parts to diy them.
eg. a local retailer/electronics store Dick Smith, have an 80w integrated amp which retails at $200 and at times goes for as little as $130.
I'm talking $AUD here ...
To make a chip amp would cost more than that ...
the transformer would cost about $80, a Jaycar case would cost close to $100 and is a lot less attractive - no thick brushed aluminium faceplate. A chip amp kit costs about $50, to which you must add heatsinks, RCAs, a preamp, hardware ... so in other words diy here is costing you more ...
Jaycar have a pair of studio amp kits, one of them costs about $600 including case and all parts and has about 250w, and it's daggy!
By contrast, you could buy a new Behringer Studio amp with similar specifications, and a few extra features and a much more stylish package (including warranty) - for about $300!
If you want more power then for the same price as the Jaycar playmaster studio amp, you can get nearly 3x the power with the Europower EP2500.
After building a chip amp, I've concluded that it's not worth it from a cost/performance point of view. I must admit, though, the challenge of doing it, learning about it, and being able to build a stylish case that matches the rest of my system ... it's all still quite tempting. And I suppose for those inclined towards exotic designs, valves, tubes, class A ... would tend to get more out of diy amps.
By contrast, it's quite easy to build speakers and subwoofers which rival commercial offerings 2 - 4 x the price.
eg. a local retailer/electronics store Dick Smith, have an 80w integrated amp which retails at $200 and at times goes for as little as $130.
I'm talking $AUD here ...
To make a chip amp would cost more than that ...
the transformer would cost about $80, a Jaycar case would cost close to $100 and is a lot less attractive - no thick brushed aluminium faceplate. A chip amp kit costs about $50, to which you must add heatsinks, RCAs, a preamp, hardware ... so in other words diy here is costing you more ...
Jaycar have a pair of studio amp kits, one of them costs about $600 including case and all parts and has about 250w, and it's daggy!
By contrast, you could buy a new Behringer Studio amp with similar specifications, and a few extra features and a much more stylish package (including warranty) - for about $300!
If you want more power then for the same price as the Jaycar playmaster studio amp, you can get nearly 3x the power with the Europower EP2500.
After building a chip amp, I've concluded that it's not worth it from a cost/performance point of view. I must admit, though, the challenge of doing it, learning about it, and being able to build a stylish case that matches the rest of my system ... it's all still quite tempting. And I suppose for those inclined towards exotic designs, valves, tubes, class A ... would tend to get more out of diy amps.
By contrast, it's quite easy to build speakers and subwoofers which rival commercial offerings 2 - 4 x the price.
spaeker quality cont.
thanks guys.
This thread is really interesting. Do forgive my ignorance, but I likened the opinion on speakers to be something like that of a red wine. I know poeple the spend 2 or 3 times as much on a bottle of wine and try and convince me that it is better than my 'cheaper' one. I know people who have spent megabucks on a hifi system, but the sound to me (and I don't consider myself to be a slouch on music 'quality'), is no better than a 'cheaper' system.
Ok, ok, i know it has a lot to do with other factors, but that is my point of question. At the end of the day it is about enjoying the finished product and enjoying doing it. I don't want to build a system that is going to sit in the corner and collect dust, i want to build a system that will change the nieghbourhood.
But, i think a lot of poeple get hung up on saying " oh, I spent $$$, on my fine such and such speakers, they make the sysytem", when i don't think they sound any better at all. It's like saying I spent $$$$ on a pair of nikes, when a cheaper brand will work just as well and the difference is unnoticeable.
At either end of the spectrum, the differences are unoticeable to the human ear anyway, and it is quite often at the extreme ends that the reall diference is on the top end speakers. Depeending on what you are listening to, of course.
I am not trying to be a smartarse here, just a protagonist to find out the guts of the opinion out there, from poeple, like yourselves that obviously know a lot more.
Cheers
thanks guys.
This thread is really interesting. Do forgive my ignorance, but I likened the opinion on speakers to be something like that of a red wine. I know poeple the spend 2 or 3 times as much on a bottle of wine and try and convince me that it is better than my 'cheaper' one. I know people who have spent megabucks on a hifi system, but the sound to me (and I don't consider myself to be a slouch on music 'quality'), is no better than a 'cheaper' system.
Ok, ok, i know it has a lot to do with other factors, but that is my point of question. At the end of the day it is about enjoying the finished product and enjoying doing it. I don't want to build a system that is going to sit in the corner and collect dust, i want to build a system that will change the nieghbourhood.
But, i think a lot of poeple get hung up on saying " oh, I spent $$$, on my fine such and such speakers, they make the sysytem", when i don't think they sound any better at all. It's like saying I spent $$$$ on a pair of nikes, when a cheaper brand will work just as well and the difference is unnoticeable.
At either end of the spectrum, the differences are unoticeable to the human ear anyway, and it is quite often at the extreme ends that the reall diference is on the top end speakers. Depeending on what you are listening to, of course.
I am not trying to be a smartarse here, just a protagonist to find out the guts of the opinion out there, from poeple, like yourselves that obviously know a lot more.
Cheers
Hi Tolak
Wine is more an art than anything else - and as with all art it is purely in the eye of the beholder - especially the beholder of the money
. However we should also remember that there are some great works of art out there that are recognised as such because of the amount of talent it takes to create it.
Speakers on the other hand are a combination of engineering and art and the difference between a cheap speaker and an expensive speaker is that usually the cheap speaker is all engineering wheras the expensive speaker has a combination of both.
A designer who can design for flat frequency response, smooth phase transitions, dynamic performance etc while actually listening to and evaluating the sound that the speaker produces is the one that will design the beter sounding speaker.
For example one of my buddies has a huge pair of Sony's - and although they sound "OK" - I much prefer my Jamo's as they seem alot smother and less "clangy" than his Sony's.
I would certainly disagree that the differences between esoteric speakers and the cheaper varieties are at the extreme's of the audio spectrum. I would say that most of the difference is in the vocal band
Wine is more an art than anything else - and as with all art it is purely in the eye of the beholder - especially the beholder of the money
. However we should also remember that there are some great works of art out there that are recognised as such because of the amount of talent it takes to create it.Speakers on the other hand are a combination of engineering and art and the difference between a cheap speaker and an expensive speaker is that usually the cheap speaker is all engineering wheras the expensive speaker has a combination of both.
A designer who can design for flat frequency response, smooth phase transitions, dynamic performance etc while actually listening to and evaluating the sound that the speaker produces is the one that will design the beter sounding speaker.
For example one of my buddies has a huge pair of Sony's - and although they sound "OK" - I much prefer my Jamo's as they seem alot smother and less "clangy" than his Sony's.
I would certainly disagree that the differences between esoteric speakers and the cheaper varieties are at the extreme's of the audio spectrum. I would say that most of the difference is in the vocal band
About wine, one of my dad's colleagues could tell all kinds of grapes that were used in making that particular wine just by tasting it. Once in France they gave him some local wine to "examine" and he named 4 out of 5 grape types correctly. The fifth was some local type...
So, as I can't do such things and any biology teacher would tell that I shouldn't be able, some people do it without problems. Then who can guarantee that the "golden ear/audiophile" (trained or inborn) abilities do not exist?
So, as I can't do such things and any biology teacher would tell that I shouldn't be able, some people do it without problems. Then who can guarantee that the "golden ear/audiophile" (trained or inborn) abilities do not exist?
Let's get real guys. He said "Do It Yourself"...
Anyways, here's my take on this: I've been following this thread for awhile and I'm really puzzled by some of the answers. Some were good others not.
Line Arrays and High Efficiency were the good answers. Why??? I've been tryng to reproduce good 'Rock' speakers for some time now and failing. High fidelity home type speakers don't cut it, Go listen to a live band or watch them in a studio on DVD. What do they use??? Marshall's, Peavey's, Line-Arrays etc. In the studio the mic's might be high fidelity but the guitarists still use Marshall's, Peaveys etc.... Why not recreate the 'Studio" sound???? High effieciency boxes similar to;
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/plans/default.php/cPath/1?osCsid=dae9089aa4331c2eb6e17d9c5eaf3a63
http://www.highefficiencyloudspeakers.com/Downloads.html
A couple Line-Arrays like these;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/rjakubin/hpnx0294.jpg
The cones should also be Aluminum for the 'SLAM' factor. My arrays 'SLAM'! Also, the Aluminums are great in the midrange band. Someone said the Dayton Planars don't 'Slam', well mine do. Put on 'Smoke On The Water' by Deep Purple and see if your speakers recreate the drumsticks at the start of the song and 'Slam' and not hurt your eardrums. I haven't found a dome tweeter that can. The Seas H1212 comes close, but no cigar! It starts compressing after awhile.
What's nice about line-arrays and high-efficiency boxes is that you don't need monstrous amps to drive them, both have high sensitivity ratings and Isn't that what JBL, Cerwin Vega have in common..
I'm just finishing Bill Fitzmaurice's -DAVID's- going to see how these sound shortly.
Attachments
Those line arrays look large and expensive to build unfortunately, but I bet they do the job!
I'm a guitar player and I've done my share of loud rock, but I passed the point where I wanted to keep losing my hearing back in my early twenties so I'd push "loud" down on the list of priorities. I know a lot of rock musicians though (my friends in Black Mountain just did a summer tour opening for Coldplay in the US) and they usually like loud. They also usually don't have any idea/interest that there are alternatives to the mass produced junk or 70's basement relics they usually listen to. Even if they did, these guys would never spend more on a stereo than they spend on a guitar, that wouldn't make any sense for them. For most of them that means < $1000.
So is there a <$1000 solution to this question?
FWIW I believe drums are the most important part of a rock sound. The drummer never gets the attention the guitar player and singer get, but they make up a huge part of the sound.
I'm a guitar player and I've done my share of loud rock, but I passed the point where I wanted to keep losing my hearing back in my early twenties so I'd push "loud" down on the list of priorities. I know a lot of rock musicians though (my friends in Black Mountain just did a summer tour opening for Coldplay in the US) and they usually like loud. They also usually don't have any idea/interest that there are alternatives to the mass produced junk or 70's basement relics they usually listen to. Even if they did, these guys would never spend more on a stereo than they spend on a guitar, that wouldn't make any sense for them. For most of them that means < $1000.
So is there a <$1000 solution to this question?
FWIW I believe drums are the most important part of a rock sound. The drummer never gets the attention the guitar player and singer get, but they make up a huge part of the sound.
Drums sound fantastic on these arrays. In fact everything sounds great with these arrays. I played Norah Jones , Paula Cole, Keiko Matsui, Tool, Deep Purple, Resident Evil Soundtrack, NIN, Metallica and Sade today and they all sounded great. The drums and bass guitar you can feel it in your chest, the mids are devine and the highs are clean & clear as a whistle.
Attachments
Tolak, I'm not so sure about the wine analogy, not being into wine, but there is going to be some truth in saying that more money does not mean better. In fact, quite a lot of truth in that!
This is not so much a matter of reaching a point where the differences aren't audible, but more that as you spend more, the products will differ quite a bit. The most expensive speakers I've heard were $24k whatmough signature speakers, however, on the same track played in a different space and a different occasion, I felt that a pair of VAF signatures which can be had for as little as $4k were just as good, in fact as accurate as anything I have heard. But then I found their accuracy to be brutal with rock music! If you compare those VAFs to some cheaper $2k speakers, I think you would be surprised at the difference. If I were a bit more of a classical/jazz lover and wasn't into pop and rock so much then speakers like that would quite possibly be my ultimate.
I went to hear a live band at a pub last night, and it was LLLLOOOUUUDD! I could only pick out some fairly compact typical PA speakers with a 12" midbass and a horn tweeter, couldn't see the subs, but my ears would have liked it 10db softer! It was a bit harsh on the ears, but the bass was that chest pounding kind. Well, today back home I had to do a comparison with my system. My 12" subs driven by 650w each didn't manage to get that chest thump They go low, very low but somehow that extreme midbass just doesn't happen.
My feeling is that if you really want to rock, and get that same ultra loud experience, and that bass you can feel pumping, then what you want is "fun speakers" not worrying too much about audiophile subtlety, but instead larger HE speakers, line arrays, VERY large subwoofers which don't need to go lower than 40 Hz.
Cone material has nothing to do with "slam" unless having a nasty untamed cone breakup that isn't dealt with is your idea of slam. Slam can come from any cone material, but has more to do with output and dynamics.
This is not so much a matter of reaching a point where the differences aren't audible, but more that as you spend more, the products will differ quite a bit. The most expensive speakers I've heard were $24k whatmough signature speakers, however, on the same track played in a different space and a different occasion, I felt that a pair of VAF signatures which can be had for as little as $4k were just as good, in fact as accurate as anything I have heard. But then I found their accuracy to be brutal with rock music! If you compare those VAFs to some cheaper $2k speakers, I think you would be surprised at the difference. If I were a bit more of a classical/jazz lover and wasn't into pop and rock so much then speakers like that would quite possibly be my ultimate.
I went to hear a live band at a pub last night, and it was LLLLOOOUUUDD! I could only pick out some fairly compact typical PA speakers with a 12" midbass and a horn tweeter, couldn't see the subs, but my ears would have liked it 10db softer! It was a bit harsh on the ears, but the bass was that chest pounding kind. Well, today back home I had to do a comparison with my system. My 12" subs driven by 650w each didn't manage to get that chest thump
They go low, very low but somehow that extreme midbass just doesn't happen. My feeling is that if you really want to rock, and get that same ultra loud experience, and that bass you can feel pumping, then what you want is "fun speakers" not worrying too much about audiophile subtlety, but instead larger HE speakers, line arrays, VERY large subwoofers which don't need to go lower than 40 Hz.
Cone material has nothing to do with "slam" unless having a nasty untamed cone breakup that isn't dealt with is your idea of slam. Slam can come from any cone material, but has more to do with output and dynamics.
poptart said:
Greets!
Agreed, and to reproduce an unamplified one at ~live levels requires one complete channel of this system driven through an expander to re-EQ the recording's compression, so if you can figure out how to legally replicate its performance in a two channel system for <$1.0K............ http://www.scrounge.org/speak/burwen/index.html
'If wishes were horsepower, bagels would fly'.
On a more realistic note, if we ignore the accurate reproduction mantras and think in terms of speakers as part of the EQ chain, then a prosound horn/sub system suffices, but not for <$1.0K unless you can find some good used equipment at relatively 'give away' prices.
Dropping it down another notch brings us to a HE co-ax/LF-midbass system. Adire's 'Hurricane' kit PA monitor meets the budget and for home use should have enough dynamic headroom to allow for some 'slam' midbass EQ if you have enough power: http://web.archive.org/web/20041019020605/http://www.adireaudio.com/
GM
I won't play in a small room with a drummer without ear plugs anymore, so hopefully I can learn to put something cheaper together and be happy with it. I think it's not the drums so much as the cymbals that leave my ears howling, but different people have different ears and apparently for some people recreating the experience of sitting next to a drummer wailing away at full clip is not only desirable, but worth spending a lot of money to achieve.
I know guys that have always played without hearing protection of any kind, standing right in front of their marshall in a small practice room for 3 hours with a drummer 6 feet away. I have a hard time hearing myself if I do that. I used to blame the PA, thinking it was distorting because it was cranked up so high, but then I heard a recording I made of a show that I thought was really distorted and noisy while I was recording it. Low and behold the recording sounded pretty clear when I played it back the next day, so it must be my ears that can't keep up at really high volume.
Thanks for answering. I hope I didn't hijack the thread, apologies to the original poster. If anyone has a link to a group more focussed on price vs performance instead of absolute performance at any cost I'd appreciate it. I feel like a buzzkill around here
I know guys that have always played without hearing protection of any kind, standing right in front of their marshall in a small practice room for 3 hours with a drummer 6 feet away. I have a hard time hearing myself if I do that. I used to blame the PA, thinking it was distorting because it was cranked up so high, but then I heard a recording I made of a show that I thought was really distorted and noisy while I was recording it. Low and behold the recording sounded pretty clear when I played it back the next day, so it must be my ears that can't keep up at really high volume.
Thanks for answering. I hope I didn't hijack the thread, apologies to the original poster. If anyone has a link to a group more focussed on price vs performance instead of absolute performance at any cost I'd appreciate it. I feel like a buzzkill around here
These did a fine job with rock - scary actually - compression drivers from 100 cycles up , three 18" horn loaded subs below - quadamped
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Magnetar said:
With all the respect - I don't see myself putting those boxes in my living room.. So, can we stick to something that is reasonable?
Something, that doesn't ruin living space, as well sounds decent?
BTW - I kind of decided to try my luck building Eton 11.2 kit. If you know I'm making mistake - "speak now or forever hold your peace"
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