I was just re-reading another forum post I had bookmarked. In post # 8 of this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...ofer-under-100-high-efficiency-low-power.html
JWMBRO made this comment:
With the Dayton PA310-8 woofer "If you use the SS15 design, unshrunk, in its original size, you are looking at about 117dB, down flat to 40Hz, xmax limited at 20V (50W into a nominal 8Ohm load)."
Ouch - if it is only capable of 50 watts that would seem to eliminate this as a contender. If we decide to build an SS15, it seems like we will have to build it with the 15" or not at all.
JWMBRO made this comment:
With the Dayton PA310-8 woofer "If you use the SS15 design, unshrunk, in its original size, you are looking at about 117dB, down flat to 40Hz, xmax limited at 20V (50W into a nominal 8Ohm load)."
Ouch - if it is only capable of 50 watts that would seem to eliminate this as a contender. If we decide to build an SS15, it seems like we will have to build it with the 15" or not at all.
Your dual Lab12 design looks powerful and fairly small. I will forward it to my brother and see what he thinks. Thanks for your suggestion.
Gotta look at the SPL it can provide as well as the wattage to achieve that SPL, particularly if you're planning to use it with a portable PA system where wattage may be limited.
Having said that, I think the PA310 would be happier with a higher tuning, because of its limited Xmax, which is what I'll be doing with my POC#3. . Unlike the 3012LF, the suspension of the PA310 starts applying the breaks very rapidly after Xmax, and this impacts perceived output as well.
Still, remember that we are talking about a 12" pro audio driver that costs around $65! Used within its usable output range, IMO the PA310 actually sounds pretty good. I think it might be happier with an Fb that's closer to 50 Hz than 40 Hz.
FWIW, the dimensions of POC #3 should be 20.5 x 15.7 x 31.5 in, which should put it slightly larger in volume than the SS15 slim. Tuning is a bit higher however, so SPL output (according to HornResp) is just above 118dB before Xmax is exceeded @75W.
That was my thread, and here is what I ended up with after looking at many, different horn options:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/219923-ultra-compact-ported-15-dayton-ref-ho.html
It fits in a midsize car or small suv and is currently chilling in the corner of my living room. It has run very well outside for several hundred people and is plenty for about 100-200 people in a 1000-1500 sq ft room. With extremely good sound quality, and low bass. The subs will surpass any horn or tapped horn of the same size - in output, low extension, high extension, and sound quality.
I would recommend you pick up an nu6000dsp for the subs, and come up with some sort of ported box that fits your costs and size requirements. For example, a B&C 18 TBW100 in 7 cubes, 32hz tune is a good benchmark. My subs will move 35% more air at the same cost and space. You can also do pretty well with the cheap car audio 12" infinity subs that are about $60, there are a few budget designs around for those - you could do a pair of 2x12" with these for pretty short money, just make sure you don't overdrive them:
Amazon.com: Infinity Reference 1262w 12-Inch 1200-Watt High-Performance Subwoofer (Dual Voice Coil): Car Electronics
Ok, I've gone off and reviewed the titan 39 design - one of my subs will easily match (or exceed below 60hz) it in max usable output, while having better extension (to 30-35 hz), needing far less EQ (none) and being half the size.
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Just remember plugyourears, there is no such thing as a free lunch.
As turbodawg has stated, if you are considering direct radiators you are likely going to need to step your amp game up, which is more cost. arts lab 2x12 design is well reviewed, but with a sensitivity around 93db 1watt/1meter, so you are going to need some power to get things moving, but it will be flat to below 40hz with just one cab. even with an amp capable of almost 2kw per channel you will be capable of around 127db with 2cabs. if you want to go farther than this you will need another amp and another circuit breaker.
The inuke 6000 will also not be suitable for the dual lab 12 as the dual lab 12 is below its 4 ohm minimum impedance rating.
As turbodawg has stated, if you are considering direct radiators you are likely going to need to step your amp game up, which is more cost. arts lab 2x12 design is well reviewed, but with a sensitivity around 93db 1watt/1meter, so you are going to need some power to get things moving, but it will be flat to below 40hz with just one cab. even with an amp capable of almost 2kw per channel you will be capable of around 127db with 2cabs. if you want to go farther than this you will need another amp and another circuit breaker.
The inuke 6000 will also not be suitable for the dual lab 12 as the dual lab 12 is below its 4 ohm minimum impedance rating.
You could use two pairs of the single voice coil version of these, woofers in parallel in each box for a 2 ohm load, which would be just right for an nu3000, if that is what you were intending to use on the subs. Make sure you have a crossover.
http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Reference-1260w-1200-watt-High-Performance/dp/B0028AVGEO
Another option is using them in a 4th order BP design (S~0.6). If you aim for an F3 around 40 Hz, the BP design will add about 3~6dB of gain on top of using these same drivers in a vented box. If you go with a large vent, the upper F3 point will likely end up being higher than that predicted by the usual box design programs (I'm not sure about HornResp) and perhaps high enough to match most good tops.
Thanks for reminding me of that. With all the different angles you can look at this with (SPL/extension/Xmax/box size/distortion/etc.) it gets very confusing sometimes. I need to learn it all needs to be considered - looking at only one thing will lead to the wrong conclusion.
When do you think you will be ready to share your POC#3 with the world? We are starting to think, for our particular situation, it might be best to have multiple smaller cabinets. The size you mentioned looks very appealing.
I found your POC 1 and 2 postings. Do you consider those still good designs, or is your POC 3 going to be vastly superior? Thanks.
Wow, that looks pretty impressive. I bookmarked your build post, I will read it today when I get some free time. Thanks for your suggestion.
Yeah, we are realizing that our choice will have to balance many factors. I really don't want our transportation and storage factors to lead us down the wrong path, but unfortunately that is where we are at. We hope to make ca choice that will work well for us now, but also still be usable is our business is successful and grows.
That dual Lab12 setup looks very nice. I bet a pair of those would really bump. Can you suggest an amp that would be appropriate for that set-up? Thanks.
Ahhhh - another option!!! Seriously, I have never heard of a 4th order BP design, so I will have to try to educate myself on that too.
I downloaded WinISD and Hordsrep last night and played with them a little bit. Playing with WinISD really made me realize how important cabinets size and tuning is in relation for low-end frequency response. It was very helpful to be able to visualize that and compare different parameters. I had a hard time figuring out Hornsrep, but that looks very useful too.
But I am far too inexperienced to attempt to design my own cabinet at this point. I need to find a design that is proven to work. Can you point me in the direction of a good example of the type of design you mentioned? Thanks
At the rate my time is getting chewed up, probably around Xmas 🙂. I've promised to have it ready for my youngest daughter's Halloween Party, but time seems to be running out very fast. I still need to design in the bracing before I start any construction.
Multiple smaller cabinets = easier to transport. It can work out to be more expensive though, as you need one driver per cabinet.
POC#1 is a tapped-pipe based on a 6.5" driver. Not good for pro audio use.
POC#2 is a THAM-like TH based on the PA310 driver. It has pretty decent output, but was initially designed without bracing. I've added bracing but external panel flex at start and midway down the path have me wondering if really this is the best type of fold to use for a pro audio TH.
POC#3 should include enough bracing to deal with panel flex issues. It's also going to have a higher Fb to be a better match for the PA310's output capability. On paper it should be better.
I've included an image of POC#2 below with some DIY tops I put together late last year using the Eminence Beta 8A driver and piezo tweeters - that should give you a good idea of its size.
Attachments
The Dual 12" with Labs or cheaper infinity car subs may be a good (compact) option.
Just remember that in the real world manufactures specifications and computer models do not always tell the whole story.
What tops are you using? What is the typical venue you plan to use them?
If you do need a big rig you should consider renting at this stage in the game IMO.
We will have to look at these Infinity 12" speakers. I am a little leery of using speakers designed for auto subs, but if it will work, great. I was just talking to a friend about this and he had an interesting idea. He suggested that we build some smaller ported 12" cabs first. Then if our business does well, use those cabs in or cars of homes, and build some real serious subs for our DJ business. That way they wouldn't be wasted.
I got a great deal on some EV ELX112's off craigslist, and they sound pretty decent.
Right now we are just getting started with our DJ business, doing small college and high school parties. Our aunt owns a bridal shop though, and she said she could help us with wedding gigs if we are serious about this. It is looking like we could get pretty busy if we can get the subwoofer situation worked out.
So we are not doing rave parties where we need ridiculous volume and low-end response. Our father is a closet audiophile and we grew up listening to pretty nice speakers. We would rather have good/clean/tight sound that than something that is just loud and nasty.
I was looking at the spec sheet for that Infinity Reference 1262w:
http://infinitysystems.com/tl_files.../Reference/Reference/1262w/REF1262W_PI_EN.pdf
Is the band pass design you mentioned basically the same thing as they show on the right side of page #2? Thanks.
Unfortunately I haven't seen any 4th order BP systems in pro use here. Most rigs here seem to use rear loaded bass horns, which should give a fair idea of far "behind the times" most of them are.
Given these specs for the Infinity 1260W:
Re: 3.59 Ohms
Le: 2.89 mH
Sd: 531.00 cm^2
BL: 16.90 TM
Vas: 82.96 l
Fs: 23.50 Hz
Qms: 6.99
Qes: 0.41
Qts: 0.39
Xmax: 13.00 mm
It should be possible to make a 4th Order BP system for them that's under 2 cu.ft., can reach down to 40 Hz and up to around 100 Hz, and is 95dB/2.83V/1M in its passband. It should take over 350W to drive the box beyond its linear limits, but output at that point should be around 117dB at 1M.
if you want small -- here's this. A pair of them are almost equal to a ss15 in both cubic volume and output. Serious DJ work would require a quad of them. Roughly flat to 50hz, so you won't do the ultra low stuff, just classic rock. You can use your 3012lf in it for a test. You'll get more output than the eminator and a bit of a response hump at 60hz (which isn't exactly a bad thing, better a hump at 60hz, than at 120)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...00-high-efficiency-low-power.html#post3122010
The real answer is probably to custom design a TH for the 3012lf's if that happens to be the driver you are set on. Either that, or PPSL's with big power.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...00-high-efficiency-low-power.html#post3122010
The real answer is probably to custom design a TH for the 3012lf's if that happens to be the driver you are set on. Either that, or PPSL's with big power.
That's a 4th order BP design, yes. It calls for two 4" diameter vents. It should work well. For pro audio use, I tend to lean towards using shelf ports instead, as they can help in bracing the cabinet.
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