My brother and I just built a BFM Titan39 @14" wide subwoofer and unfortunately we are not overwhelmed with joy. After all the props it gets on the BFM forum, we are left asking "where's the bass?"
We were recently referred to this site, and some of the tapped horn projects look really interesting. But we are feeling kind of overwhelmed with all the information this forum has.
We need a compact subwoofer system for the DJ service we are starting. Our big problem is that we have to keep the cabs smaller as we have limited
transportation and storage space available.
Some of the DIY TH subwoofer projects we are looking at at the THAM 12/15 and the SS15-slim. Are there any other TH's that are smaller in size and would work well for PA use? It would work better for us to build multiple smaller cabinets than one bigger one. Also, our funds are somewhat limited, so we won't be able to use any of the high-end drivers. Thanks for your help!
We were recently referred to this site, and some of the tapped horn projects look really interesting. But we are feeling kind of overwhelmed with all the information this forum has.
We need a compact subwoofer system for the DJ service we are starting. Our big problem is that we have to keep the cabs smaller as we have limited
transportation and storage space available.
Some of the DIY TH subwoofer projects we are looking at at the THAM 12/15 and the SS15-slim. Are there any other TH's that are smaller in size and would work well for PA use? It would work better for us to build multiple smaller cabinets than one bigger one. Also, our funds are somewhat limited, so we won't be able to use any of the high-end drivers. Thanks for your help!
I'd just like to point out. you built a single 14" wide horn sub with a 10" driver that will take roughly 30volts. Unless you loaded it with the 3010lf... in which case I'd still expect it to get decently loud. If I remember correctly, everyone on the forum suggested you go 3012lf or lab 12. Most people who go bp102 end up with like 8 of them.
If you're gonna do t39, you need AT LEAST 2. esp if they are the slim 10" loaded ones.
If you need PA bass, you need space.
mind breaking down the rest of your setup?
If you're gonna do t39, you need AT LEAST 2. esp if they are the slim 10" loaded ones.
If you need PA bass, you need space.
mind breaking down the rest of your setup?
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We had planned on building 2 or 4 of the Titan39's, but built one just to make sure we liked it. But we are disappointed with the first one we built, so we are thinking of cutting our losses here and just starting over with another style of cabinet. We have heard a lot of good things about these tapped horns and want to give one of them a try.
The BFM site doesn't seem to like people who talk bad about the BFM cabs, and the posts seem to mysteriously disappear. This site seem a lot more open minded. I am hoping there will be some kind people here who will help us out. If you are happy with your BFM cabs, great! We just are hoping to find something better.
For our PA gear we have so far, it is:
Behringer 3000DSP power amp
Electrovoice EXL112 speakers
Rane graphic EQ
If you had built 4 of the BFM cabs, you would have had a more favorable impression. That type of cab only works well in multiples. Just one cab has a giant peak at about 110-130 Hz, and relatively little at 40-50. Gang several of them up and it flattens out. I would only consider front loaded designs if you have space for a bunch of them - they ALL have that drooping low end if the stack is too small.
TH's have an advantage in that they are more scaleable - just one has reasonable low end extension. Then when you group them they scale as you would expect them to. You probably don't want a box smaller than an SS15 - it is pretty much an optimum use of space. And you can run them with a $169 driver. The TH18's are bigger, and really need the expensive drivers to work well. The single LAB12 design may be an option as well, with a tradeoff in SPL for extension.
TH's have an advantage in that they are more scaleable - just one has reasonable low end extension. Then when you group them they scale as you would expect them to. You probably don't want a box smaller than an SS15 - it is pretty much an optimum use of space. And you can run them with a $169 driver. The TH18's are bigger, and really need the expensive drivers to work well. The single LAB12 design may be an option as well, with a tradeoff in SPL for extension.
There are a lots of DJ's on the BFM forum that only use one of the Titan39's, but I agree you that one definitely doesn't do it.
Have you built one of the SS15's and are you completely happy with it? Do you think we could get by with just one of them paired up with our Electrovoice EXL112 speakers? We don't need it super loud, but we want a nice "phat" low end.
I also came across this posting:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...ofer-under-100-high-efficiency-low-power.html
What is your opinion of building two of the SS15's at 14" wide and using the possible 12" speakers mentioned:
Dayton Audio ST305-8 12" Series II Woofer
Dayton Audio PA310-8 12" Pro Woofer
Thanks for your comments.
Yes, and all of those djs use the 3012lf loaded Titan39. which they told you explicitly, will be as loud as 3 bp102 loaded t39s. so right now you're packing about 1/3 the weight they are.
Mr. Sine143, if we wanted to hear more about the BFM subs, I would go to the BFM site. But I came here to look for something different. We actually have the Eminence 3012LF in our Titan 39 and were not real impressed. Sure it's gets loud, but it takes a ridiculous amount of EQ to get flat response, and that is not what we want. We are looking for other options, and that is why we cane to this forum.
You have a huge BFM system and I am sure you have spent a lot of time and energy putting it together. If you are happy with it, congratulations! But for us, it doesn't live up the to hype we had expected. Before we put anymore time and effort into this, we want to make sure we are making the best decision. Don't get defensive and insecure about it though - let other people have their own opinions and choices. Peace!
You have a huge BFM system and I am sure you have spent a lot of time and energy putting it together. If you are happy with it, congratulations! But for us, it doesn't live up the to hype we had expected. Before we put anymore time and effort into this, we want to make sure we are making the best decision. Don't get defensive and insecure about it though - let other people have their own opinions and choices. Peace!
Don't try to go small if you want big sound... it just doesn't work. I've been there, done that.
The ss15 is the best balance for size,output,extension,price. (well the unreleased ss18 gives it a run, but that's another story)
Use the 3012lf you have for a test, buy a sheet and build the original ss15. limit to 50v and 35hz 24db/oct high pass and 90hz low pass. No it's not as flat and as loud as the 4015lf, or 3015lf's but you'll get the idea if it's for you.
All it costs is a sheet and some PL. (5/8"BC sanded works well) If that test meets your expectations, then you know investigating TH's is for you. If it doesn't, you can continue your search elsewhere.
The ss15 is the best balance for size,output,extension,price. (well the unreleased ss18 gives it a run, but that's another story)
Use the 3012lf you have for a test, buy a sheet and build the original ss15. limit to 50v and 35hz 24db/oct high pass and 90hz low pass. No it's not as flat and as loud as the 4015lf, or 3015lf's but you'll get the idea if it's for you.
All it costs is a sheet and some PL. (5/8"BC sanded works well) If that test meets your expectations, then you know investigating TH's is for you. If it doesn't, you can continue your search elsewhere.
The PA310 is a nice driver for THs, but its somewhat limited Xmax (compared to drivers like the 3012LF) does impact on peak output capability.
I'll be building a 50 Hz TH with a PA310 in the near future. I'll let you know how it turns out 🙂
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Im here because im interested in all manners of diy speaker enclosures. Im also here to try and help you. You Seem to want to start a dj business using subs that are 6-7 cubic feet and no larger. You passed judgment on a flh after building one, and plenty of ither people have pointed out that if you want flatter response use more than one. (Btw the 3012lf is not intended for use in a 14inch cab). If you want to get a decent benchmark on a design do it right. There are many people on this forum who were not happy with their bfm builds and moved to other options, thats all well and good, but most of them put te hours in and designed their own cabs to suit their needs or materials.
Ive made my money back 20 times on my bfm cabs and for that im grateful. And i did it with NO car for 2 years (yeah thise casters saw use!)! This doesnt mean im not hungry for more bass! And the next thing i build for myself will not be bfm. Im just trying to help you understand if you want to make BASS you are going to either need packspace, or wallet space.
The 3012lf is on the kiddie pool side of drivers being used over here, and many of the nicer offering are hitting the mid 400-500s in driver costs in many of the successful tapped horns being published on diyaudio. There are plenty of exceptions, but most are severly limited in PE (good sensitivity low power handling) , as a tapped horn generally hits excursion maxima within its passband. check the SS18 designed around the dayton pro 18. Flat to 45or so, with a 38 hz hipass
Ive made my money back 20 times on my bfm cabs and for that im grateful. And i did it with NO car for 2 years (yeah thise casters saw use!)! This doesnt mean im not hungry for more bass! And the next thing i build for myself will not be bfm. Im just trying to help you understand if you want to make BASS you are going to either need packspace, or wallet space.
The 3012lf is on the kiddie pool side of drivers being used over here, and many of the nicer offering are hitting the mid 400-500s in driver costs in many of the successful tapped horns being published on diyaudio. There are plenty of exceptions, but most are severly limited in PE (good sensitivity low power handling) , as a tapped horn generally hits excursion maxima within its passband. check the SS18 designed around the dayton pro 18. Flat to 45or so, with a 38 hz hipass
My brother and I would eventually like to have 4 subwoofers, so we could have two separate systems for small events, or one big system for larger events. How much would it hurt us if we made the SS15 narrower? I am in college and my dorm room doesn't give me much storage space.
Or do you think could we get by with just one of the full width SS15's matched up to the Electrovice tops we have? We truly understand that we can't get big sound if we go too small, but we need to find something that will work in the situation we are stuck with. We won't be able to buy a van/truck/trailer until we have started making money from this.
Thanks for your suggestions. My brother does the actual cabinet building - I think I see a SS15 build in his future!
The 3012LF has an xmax of 9.1, and the PA310-8 has an xmax of 5. Does that mean that it would basically take two of the PA310-8's to equal a 3012LF?
At this point it is not so much more volume we need, we just want it to sound good. Our testing of the Titan 39 we built with the 3012LF got pretty loud, we just weren't real excited about the sound that was coming out of it. I have heard that some people just don't like the sound of folded horns, and we may be in hat category. So it that 3012LF gave us the volume we needed, two of the PA310-8's should be equivalent?
Thanks for your comments. Good luck with you new design, we will keep an eye out for it.
At this point we are trying to get the best system we can, but we have very hard limits on funds/transportation/storage that are basically un-negotiatable. We are just trying to get started, not "Pro" level users like many here.
I have used the search function for SS18, and I don't see any posts for it. JBell mentioned it is "unreleased." That is very likely too big for what we can use right now, but I would be interested in taking a look at it to plan for the future. Can you give me a link for information on that. Thanks.
If pack space is your #1 criteria horns are not the best way to go IMO. You may want to just bite the bullet and do a brute force BR cab with as much amp as it will take.
I had plans to build 4 SS15's but have found that 95% of the time a pair of smaller reflex boxes is more than adequate.
If $ and power are a factor horns are the way to go (outdoors/some venues/permanent install,) you will need to factor in processing also.
I had plans to build 4 SS15's but have found that 95% of the time a pair of smaller reflex boxes is more than adequate.
If $ and power are a factor horns are the way to go (outdoors/some venues/permanent install,) you will need to factor in processing also.
YES!!!! Pack space is our primary concern at this point. But we are hoping for great sound too!
What model of subwoofers are you using? Are there any DIY plans you would suggest looking at?
For "processing" are you talking about a crossover and EQ? The Behringer 3000DSP amp we have has those built into it. We also have a RANE graphic EQ.
The BFM site is always bad-mouthing the ported bass reflex cabs, but that is what see most people using in the real world. I really like the sound of some BR systems I have heard. Is the main drawback just they need bigger amps?
Thanks for your suggestions.
Right now I have 3015lf's in 150liter boxes tuned to around 38hz. I have the 6000DSP amp and set the limiters appropriately for the source material. If I needed more output/space I would build a set of 18" compact reflex boxes with a 4ohm B&C/18 sound/P-audio driver. Peavey lowrider's are a budget option.
if pack space is your issue -- tell us exactly what space you have to deal with? (exact dimensions please...) The simplified version of the ss18 is tall and skinny, vs a more typical sub aspect ratio. Aka, they are more back seat friendly for pack space. Maybe that helps?
(the 3012lf in the simplified ss18 cabinet will give 125db flat to 40hz at 50v input, no massive eq required)
(the 3012lf in the simplified ss18 cabinet will give 125db flat to 40hz at 50v input, no massive eq required)
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Rather than repeat, check this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/170771-single-sheet-th-challenge-141.html#post2871133
BR can beat TH or FLH from a pack space standpoint, but may require as much as 6 dB more power (and double the drivers) to achieve that goal.
Well, tall and skinny would work better for us than short and fat. For the time being transportation will be via economy car, and storage will be in a dorm room or small apartment. The narrower cab would work well as it wouldn't take ups as much floor space.
The T39 was workable for us (15x20x39). The SS15-slim (14x24x30) would work too. Where are the plans for the SS18 everyone is talking about?
Thanks for your help.
Indeed. Lines up pretty properly with the wallet space law. Hed pribably be best off re dimensioning you dual lab 12 box to be long and skinny. He couldbpower 2 of them off his amp, although thats 640 in drivers... He may be better off with something that doesnt go so low. Guess he should open up win isd or hornresp and see what the 3012lf can do.
Any thoughts on a single lab 12 half width keystone cab?
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