Looking for a good low distortion 15" driver that will play clean up to a higher than usual xover point ie. 2.5k or so. This will be for a passive studio monitor type speaker that can do light PA duty as well - not wanting to use DSP for this. I have my heart set on the B&C DE250 driver on a JBL JRX/seos type waveguide and don't like the way it sounds at higher volume crossed under 2.5k, so that's why I'm wanting a better LF/midbass driver that will fit the design.
One of the usual culprits I've found are the Eminence 3015HO and B&C 15HPL76 neo drivers, but I was hoping there was something better out there. Most of the 12s and 15s have nasty cone breakup past 1.5k and require lots of xover trickery to flatten out and once you go through a large count of xover components, most of the sensitivity is lost. I'd like to not need more than basic BSC and a zobel other than the basic LP components on the woofer.
Your input is appreciated.
One of the usual culprits I've found are the Eminence 3015HO and B&C 15HPL76 neo drivers, but I was hoping there was something better out there. Most of the 12s and 15s have nasty cone breakup past 1.5k and require lots of xover trickery to flatten out and once you go through a large count of xover components, most of the sensitivity is lost. I'd like to not need more than basic BSC and a zobel other than the basic LP components on the woofer.
Your input is appreciated.
Also considering the B&C 15NDL88 on which I can't find any reviews or feedback. The response curve looks good but I don't really trust published manufacturer specs.
Earl Geddes apparently crossed the DE250 over somewhere in the 900-950 hz area, maybe he can elaborate.
Perhaps your horn is on the small side for what you want to use it for. I would not cross the 15" woofer at ~ ka = 10, but rather stay around the area of ka = 2 or very slightly higher.
Perhaps your horn is on the small side for what you want to use it for. I would not cross the 15" woofer at ~ ka = 10, but rather stay around the area of ka = 2 or very slightly higher.
- a shame things like EV's SP15 aren't available. Fane makes a 15-300TC with (double !) whizzer but its Qts is high so would tend towards sealed box usage.
I was told that Sun studios used SP15 in their Karlson enclosures.
SP15 spec-ed at 25lb and sported a brilliance control. It had a nicer midrange to me than the later SP15A (1970's model})
spec sheet https://products.electrovoice.com/binary/SP15 and SP15B EDS.pdf
Here's a graph of SP15 in an R-J -
I was told that Sun studios used SP15 in their Karlson enclosures.
SP15 spec-ed at 25lb and sported a brilliance control. It had a nicer midrange to me than the later SP15A (1970's model})
spec sheet https://products.electrovoice.com/binary/SP15 and SP15B EDS.pdf
Here's a graph of SP15 in an R-J -
Thanks, I'll have to look at all those options. I realize that I'm asking alot from a 15" driver to go that high.
I like AE drivers. They make beautiful stuff. Just haven't tried any of their larger drivers.
The sound signature of the DE250 is very clean but I can't imagine it hanging on that well playing down past 1k. Maybe its a matter of using an LCR notch to remove the impedance peak?
The EV full range drivers look attractive, but i don't know if they can handle much power being an older design that used a paper VC former. Maybe I'm mistaken.
I actually prefer a sealed box design to keep the midrange cleaner and allow it to mate well with a sub if needed.
I like AE drivers. They make beautiful stuff. Just haven't tried any of their larger drivers.
The sound signature of the DE250 is very clean but I can't imagine it hanging on that well playing down past 1k. Maybe its a matter of using an LCR notch to remove the impedance peak?
The EV full range drivers look attractive, but i don't know if they can handle much power being an older design that used a paper VC former. Maybe I'm mistaken.
I actually prefer a sealed box design to keep the midrange cleaner and allow it to mate well with a sub if needed.
-say's it's in-stock here, but shipping's going to be *expensive:
Boutique Haut-parleurs & Audio DIY
*though thankfully the driver isn't that expensive.
Boutique Haut-parleurs & Audio DIY
*though thankfully the driver isn't that expensive.
I've used these. They have a nice midrange.
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 15PR400 (8Ω)
Didn't Dr. Geddes use the DE500 in his 15" loudspeaker?
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 15PR400 (8Ω)
Didn't Dr. Geddes use the DE500 in his 15" loudspeaker?
Firstly, studio and PA are two applications that use quite conflicting driver selection approaches (unfortunately).
In cheap 2-way PA speakers, the woofers "produce" sound above 1k using tricks like curvilinear cones and their flexing to give a "controlled breakup". If they're clean enough is an entirely subjective matter.
However, in studio, woofers are never operated outside of their range and therefore do not use (or need) the above tricks (cones are usually straight). Besides, the focus, right from the initial design stages, is on linearity (low distortion, low power compression etc.) rather than on sensitivity or wide bandwidth.
Therefore if this speaker is really meant to be a studio monitor (used in editing /mixing work), I would suggest getting a slightly better compression driver (coaxial maybe) and crossing it lower, < 1k. However, if meant for PA, a speaker with low Mms for a 15" (< 70g) and a curvilinear paper cone is more likely to achieve what you want. e.g. JBL 2220, M115-8A (more recent).
All the best.
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15w500 looks like a nice driver. The high Qts, Fs and VAS will need a huge sealed box or would be great as an open baffle driver. I wish it would work in a smaller box.
15PR400 also looks good. Not much Xmax so it will need a sub to work for me.
Yes, I realize this isn't a typical studio monitor. I'm needing it for monitoring as a "scratch pad" not worrying about pushing it a little harder with uncontrolled sources and the occasional feedback, so i don't have to jeopardize the real monitors with more fragile drivers. So in essence its just a glorified PA speaker with smooth response.
I have yet to find a reasonably priced compressiom driver that can be crossed low and play loud without cutting my ears off. It would have to be bigger than a 1 inch driver so the air speed in the throat doesn't exceed speed of sound at higher levels. Thats what makes a horn sound "crackly" at higher volume levels. In contrast a larger throat driver won't have the top end extension. I didnt want to spend 1000 bucks on a driver that suits my needs, even if it existed. Coax drivers are all going to fall into that category. Thats why I decided to compromise and use a better LF driver with good extension rather than pushing the xover point down low and requiring a cost prohibitive compression driver. I've heard JBL M2s and wasn't that impressed in all honesty. I'd rather have a less definitive midrange than a harsh laser beam midrange coming from the compression driver.
15PR400 also looks good. Not much Xmax so it will need a sub to work for me.
Yes, I realize this isn't a typical studio monitor. I'm needing it for monitoring as a "scratch pad" not worrying about pushing it a little harder with uncontrolled sources and the occasional feedback, so i don't have to jeopardize the real monitors with more fragile drivers. So in essence its just a glorified PA speaker with smooth response.
I have yet to find a reasonably priced compressiom driver that can be crossed low and play loud without cutting my ears off. It would have to be bigger than a 1 inch driver so the air speed in the throat doesn't exceed speed of sound at higher levels. Thats what makes a horn sound "crackly" at higher volume levels. In contrast a larger throat driver won't have the top end extension. I didnt want to spend 1000 bucks on a driver that suits my needs, even if it existed. Coax drivers are all going to fall into that category. Thats why I decided to compromise and use a better LF driver with good extension rather than pushing the xover point down low and requiring a cost prohibitive compression driver. I've heard JBL M2s and wasn't that impressed in all honesty. I'd rather have a less definitive midrange than a harsh laser beam midrange coming from the compression driver.
Well, in that case, it is highly unlikely that the resulting speaker would exhibit a wide beamwidth. Try to use it only on-axis, with the required (on-axis) equalisation built into the network (no DSP).
PSD2002 (Eminence) and D220Ti (Selenium) are examples of popular "value for money" compression drivers (1") that can cross at 1k. There may be several others out there, just have to wait for somebody to confirm. If crossing around 2.5k, the ASD1001 (Eminence) is probably the best driver you could get for the money.
PSD2002 (Eminence) and D220Ti (Selenium) are examples of popular "value for money" compression drivers (1") that can cross at 1k. There may be several others out there, just have to wait for somebody to confirm. If crossing around 2.5k, the ASD1001 (Eminence) is probably the best driver you could get for the money.
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15PR400 is a decent mid-woofer.
Do you realize that at ka =10, your proposed crossover point, a 15" driver would be exhibiting a beamwidth of around 30 degrees total, with narrow side lobes ( or fingers ) appearing at 30 degrees and 60 degrees off axis?
Speaker directivity / off axis response: theory and measurement techniques - Acoustic Frontiers
Use a 12 if you want to cross that high, a 15 just isn't going to be satisfactory crossed above 2K. If you have to go 15, then use a bigger horn and cross lower.
That's my 2 cents after decades of working with such speakers,
That's my 2 cents after decades of working with such speakers,
Does your hearing extend to 20 khz? Mine doesn't, it stops at 14 khz. As a result I found Peavey 22XT horn driver extremely satisfying crossed at 1.2 khz in the SP2-XT. But that only goes to 17 khz. SP2-XT was the most accurate speaker I've heard except the SP2 (2004) which crosses @ 2 khz. My accuracy test is Steinway grand piano CDs, including top & bottom notes, which I know what reproduction is supposed to sound like. 2" driver, 1.3" throat. 22XT available occasionally on ebay for ~$130 a pair with 5"x14" horn. Pullouts from blown woofer units. While I sound test @ 1 W in rooms, the 15KADT + 22XT combo will perform to 300 W RMS.
Klipsch used an Atlas phenolic midrange with a 1" throat down to 400 hz in the Klipschorn and Lascala, that was capable of 120 dB+ levels, without making crackly noises. The throat of the K-400 is also smaller than 1" internally.
Ive heard a few la scalas and they sound exactly the same as any other small comoression driver I've listened to. IOW same issues that I hear with all other 1 inch drivers I've heard in the lower midrange.
I totally understand i won't have much usable dispersion running a 15 inch cone driver that high. To me its the better compromise not having the harsh midrange. I dont need optimal beam width all over the frequency range. I'll be listening on axis most of the time.
The only reasonably priced larger compression driver I ever liked was the 2431H in the old JBL SRX line. Those sound really nice even though they dont go very high. I don't need 20k extension. A good 1.5-2 inch driver would be the best solution for my needs but they aren't very easy to find or ridiculously expensive.
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It could work quite well in an aperiodic small enclosure: perhaps enough that you wouldn't need baffle-step correction. You would of course need a subwoofer to complement it though.
(..though yes, the off-axis response (integration) could still be an issue unless you are very "shallow" slope at the right freq.)
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