i have yet not simulated a box for that driver but the free air resonance seems a little high
No idea how they sound. A Ken is the generic suffix for my miniOnken designs — a reflex enclosure purposly pushed towards aperiodic. They have, over literally hundreds of designs, a tendency towards small relative size, and elegant, well controlled, and musical bass. They only go as low as they go, there is no attempt to maximize bass extension.
The optimum size for this driver is 45 litres, and first off will be a Classic Golden Ratio configuration.
dave
The optimum size for this driver is 45 litres, and first off will be a Classic Golden Ratio configuration.
dave
I have learned two things from your reply. Firstly, your sensitivity is cost related, secondly, your listening spot is just below ceiling. 🙂
Lobing, i believe, (mostly) occures when 2 drivers are not physically coincident, ie C-C is less than a quarter wavelength at the XO.
In a coax this usually means some sort of time delay for one of the drivers. Easiest with DSP XO.
dave
Yep, but Fs isn't the only thing that determines the listening experience.
It's been a while since I ran the sims, but IIRC an ML-TL would get down below 40Hz with a response that sloped down towards the tuning frequency. When placed near a back wall, and factoring in some room gain, I'd expect a very good listening experience.
Chris
Hi,
Bms have some new 10" which seems promising. A member here use them in a 3 way and was really pleased with them.
Radian reintroduced some 10" too recently and they should be good too ( i've heard some older 10" from them 20 year ago and they was good to me).
Why want you 2 ways Celef? Going 3 ways with 'Tannoy style' coax ( with the woofer membrane used as a waveguide) there is only benefits from relieving the mid woofer from bass duties. And if you cross around 250/300hz you can easily satisfy 1/4 wavelength rule of thumb.so still have the benefits of coax.
Bms have some new 10" which seems promising. A member here use them in a 3 way and was really pleased with them.
Radian reintroduced some 10" too recently and they should be good too ( i've heard some older 10" from them 20 year ago and they was good to me).
Why want you 2 ways Celef? Going 3 ways with 'Tannoy style' coax ( with the woofer membrane used as a waveguide) there is only benefits from relieving the mid woofer from bass duties. And if you cross around 250/300hz you can easily satisfy 1/4 wavelength rule of thumb.so still have the benefits of coax.
yes and no, cost must be low and listening spot is on axis about 1.8 meters from the speakers, any head movement up/down or front/back makes a tonal shift in the sound with seperated drivers, not so with coaxial drivers.
i need a very large listening distance to overcome this with seperated drivers, i do not have this distance in my listening room, i also need a great distance to any wall for me and the speakers
yes, i believe so too
time delay is not a major concern i think as long the drivers zum nicely together
a driver with an fs around 70 hz and a low qts below 0.3 will have a very early low frequency roll-off, i want a little more low frequency output then that
thanks, i will check them out
i want the simplicity of a 2-way, and i want them to be all passive, and i want the boxes to be fairly small around 40 liters and i do not need them to go so deep in frequency, they will therfor be very fast and with less room integration issues i hope, and i want the look of zu audio and early wlm because i love their look 🙂
Hi Celef,
Ok passive and small with lowend extension isn't going to be easy to find.
Most 10" ( not coax) require volumes which are almost the same that for 12" if you want some low end extension so usually dismiss their use ( for me). From recent products i can't think of a reference which could do that ( as most are pro oriented).
With your requirements i would take a look at second hand Tannoy which could be of use ( but with drawbacks: uncertainty about their overall state, they won't get you to sub territory,...).
Maybe in a closed box with a linkwitz transform you could do something interesting with a recent one but it wont satisfy the passive requirement ( or it could if you use a computer as source implementing the linkwitz transform through an eq plug in and don't ask for high spl).
About look a second driver could be hidden in the tower (or on a side, even downward firing) and fullfill the visual requirements...
Compromise as always...
Ok passive and small with lowend extension isn't going to be easy to find.
Most 10" ( not coax) require volumes which are almost the same that for 12" if you want some low end extension so usually dismiss their use ( for me). From recent products i can't think of a reference which could do that ( as most are pro oriented).
With your requirements i would take a look at second hand Tannoy which could be of use ( but with drawbacks: uncertainty about their overall state, they won't get you to sub territory,...).
Maybe in a closed box with a linkwitz transform you could do something interesting with a recent one but it wont satisfy the passive requirement ( or it could if you use a computer as source implementing the linkwitz transform through an eq plug in and don't ask for high spl).
About look a second driver could be hidden in the tower (or on a side, even downward firing) and fullfill the visual requirements...
Compromise as always...
Me too, but i like the XO low. Low enuf that we have acoustic coincidence, not necessarily physical coincidence.
The coax may look like the 2 drivers are coincident, but given the high frequencies of the XO the physical non-coincidence is the amount of time delay that is necessary. With a low XO this can be done physically instead of electrically.
dave
^ so true.
Even some Tannoy are plagued with this: my System800 (passive) have too high a z offset between tweet and woofer. As a result there is some weirdness around 1,5khz for a xover freq of 1,8khz theorically.
I tried to compensate using a delay in my dsp but the offset is too small for the sampling frequency i used (48khz): it didn't improved them as the delay step is too coarse (or i may have screwed this though).
In the active version they implemented two allpass cells in series to compensate for this offset ( its is in the 100 microsecond range iirc) and the difference is clearly audible versus the passive ( at least to me).
Even some Tannoy are plagued with this: my System800 (passive) have too high a z offset between tweet and woofer. As a result there is some weirdness around 1,5khz for a xover freq of 1,8khz theorically.
I tried to compensate using a delay in my dsp but the offset is too small for the sampling frequency i used (48khz): it didn't improved them as the delay step is too coarse (or i may have screwed this though).
In the active version they implemented two allpass cells in series to compensate for this offset ( its is in the 100 microsecond range iirc) and the difference is clearly audible versus the passive ( at least to me).
To acheive a “small” box and have bass extention, one has to give up efficiency.
Looking for a low sensitivity coax might yield some results, but i expect those are few and far between.
dave
maybe i did not make myself clear but i am fine with limited low end extension 🙂 i can happily live with a bandwidth equal to a small/medium sized bookshelf speaker. and i am not for high output levels either, but i want the larger driver to better reveal low level details
i do not see any problem with this, with an asymetric crossover they usually zum nice both on and off axis, other then that i have no interest in phase response
What is your target for low end Celef ( small/medium sized monitors can go relatively low -trading output level- others can't reproduce anything below 80hz...so your requirement is a bit vague defined as is)?
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i do not have a specific target, i think a 10cx in a 45 liter box tuned to around 55hz would work just fine for me, that gives a -10db point just above 40hz
currently i am using sb acoustics cheap sb16pfc-coax in 12 liter boxes with a similar low end response
i also have a pair of 12cx in 120 liter boxes but i just can not stand the huge size of them