hmmzz...
I'm reading the article now, and it seems like one hell of a sub!
But:
It's HUGE!!! I won't be able to accomodate one in my smallish room, let alone a set of 2 of them!
Maybe a huge PRO-sub like this one would be a good add-on sub in the future to deliver the real low down bass, where the stereo bassboxes will only have to do the range from, say, 40 to 120 hertz.
Maybe someday, i'll try out something like that. But for now, i'll stick to reasonably sized boxes.
In my case huge volume levels are not needed, since i have only a small room. High quality at normal listening levels is what i want.
I'm reading the article now, and it seems like one hell of a sub!
But:
It's HUGE!!! I won't be able to accomodate one in my smallish room, let alone a set of 2 of them!
Maybe a huge PRO-sub like this one would be a good add-on sub in the future to deliver the real low down bass, where the stereo bassboxes will only have to do the range from, say, 40 to 120 hertz.
Maybe someday, i'll try out something like that. But for now, i'll stick to reasonably sized boxes.
In my case huge volume levels are not needed, since i have only a small room. High quality at normal listening levels is what i want.
Thanks for the link to the Almighty which I have not seen before. On the Subwwofer section in this Forum (my XXLS thread) I have been asking exactly for something like this, namely:
a) Big Size OK
b) Shall cover mainly 20-40Hz (in my case)
c) High efficiency
Pity that the JBL elements are so expensive though
LageB
a) Big Size OK
b) Shall cover mainly 20-40Hz (in my case)
c) High efficiency
Pity that the JBL elements are so expensive though
LageB
The JBL's are pretty cheap second hand, even when you buy broken units and let them be reconed. I'm using two of the predessors (the 2205 J) of these per channel in my woofer system and I'm pretty happy with them. Have a look on e-bay thre are lots of them out there. If I had to buy new ones I would also consider PHL.
There are many Pro drivers out there that can perform extremely well in hifi applications, the world is much much bigger than Denmark.
There are many Pro drivers out there that can perform extremely well in hifi applications, the world is much much bigger than Denmark.
Konnichiwa,
Which is why you want a sub with plenty of headroom, so that at normal levels the Sub is just cruising, rather than being pushed to it's limits and showing a lot of compression.
You can go for a pair of 22" Cubes with a decent Pro Audio 18" (Eminence Omega Pro 18 with a 4" Voicecoil, 800W RMS power handling and a rather low price comes to mind) which will easily out-spl any Peerless XLS Woofer at 20Hz by 3-4db and seriously so (9db+) at 40Hz even if you give the peerless sub the same enclosure size!
You obviously need to EQ the woofer, but quite frankly, you need to do that anyway, perferably using both an EQ to counteract the rolloff from the undersized box and further parametric notchfilters (3 - 5 recommended!) to deal with room modes.
And before you even think of it, strongly resist the temptations of using passive radiators or reflex systems, they may increase the QUANTITY of the bass, but the quality goes out of the window....
So, as said, cut out playing with toys and avoid all the common crutches....
Sayonara
keyser said:
Which is why you want a sub with plenty of headroom, so that at normal levels the Sub is just cruising, rather than being pushed to it's limits and showing a lot of compression.
You can go for a pair of 22" Cubes with a decent Pro Audio 18" (Eminence Omega Pro 18 with a 4" Voicecoil, 800W RMS power handling and a rather low price comes to mind) which will easily out-spl any Peerless XLS Woofer at 20Hz by 3-4db and seriously so (9db+) at 40Hz even if you give the peerless sub the same enclosure size!
You obviously need to EQ the woofer, but quite frankly, you need to do that anyway, perferably using both an EQ to counteract the rolloff from the undersized box and further parametric notchfilters (3 - 5 recommended!) to deal with room modes.
And before you even think of it, strongly resist the temptations of using passive radiators or reflex systems, they may increase the QUANTITY of the bass, but the quality goes out of the window....
So, as said, cut out playing with toys and avoid all the common crutches....
Sayonara
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Hi!,
i'll examine the idea of using a PRO driver further. However, you suggest i shouldn't use a reflex-system, but the sub from the article you linked to is in fact a reflex-system.
I already had the intention to go sealed, and i am still not tempted to go with BR. Can a PRO driver still go as deep as for example the peerless or the ScanSpeak, if it is not in a ported system? I always thought PRO drivers were meant to go loud, but not very low.
Konnichiwa,
I am aware it is a reflex system. Different strokes for different blokes.
The cited Eminence Omega Pro 18 will have in the same 22" Cube 2-3db more SPL @ 20Hz than a Peerless 12" XLS with 2.83V input, despite having nearly twice the Re (DC Voicecoil Resitsance), which really means the Eminence 18" is around 5-6db more efficient at 20Hz than Peerless (at 40Hz the Eminence Pro Woofer is around 8-9db more efficient.
BTW, the Eminence 18" Drivers and the Peerless 12" Drivers have around parity in UK "street price", hence my choice of the Omega Pro 18.
I am not sure what you mean with "go as deep", but the above illustrates that at any given power level and frequency the Pro Audio Woofer will play much louder than the HiFi Woofer, which means that when both systems produce equal SPL the Pro Audio woofer will require less power, have less compression and most likely also much lower distortion.
Absolutely, but that means they still go a lot louder at low frequencies than these overhyped, overpriced (for what you get) and underperforming stuff cited as Subwoofers in HiFi Circles.
Sayonara
keyser said:
I am aware it is a reflex system. Different strokes for different blokes.
keyser said:
The cited Eminence Omega Pro 18 will have in the same 22" Cube 2-3db more SPL @ 20Hz than a Peerless 12" XLS with 2.83V input, despite having nearly twice the Re (DC Voicecoil Resitsance), which really means the Eminence 18" is around 5-6db more efficient at 20Hz than Peerless (at 40Hz the Eminence Pro Woofer is around 8-9db more efficient.
BTW, the Eminence 18" Drivers and the Peerless 12" Drivers have around parity in UK "street price", hence my choice of the Omega Pro 18.
I am not sure what you mean with "go as deep", but the above illustrates that at any given power level and frequency the Pro Audio Woofer will play much louder than the HiFi Woofer, which means that when both systems produce equal SPL the Pro Audio woofer will require less power, have less compression and most likely also much lower distortion.
keyser said:
Absolutely, but that means they still go a lot louder at low frequencies than these overhyped, overpriced (for what you get) and underperforming stuff cited as Subwoofers in HiFi Circles.
Sayonara
Banned
Joined 2002
Does anyone have any comments on the Scan-Speak Driver's. I have been reading and researching a pair of speakers for myself. Id like a 2 way with a realy nice tweeter and nice mid bass driver.. I dont mind spending a few hundred $$$ on drivers to get a well performing pair of drivers.. id like to bi amp. As i just spend all the money in the world on these mini a amp's i have 4 of them 2 stereo blocks that im wishing i could use to bi-amp one stereo block per speaker.. of course mine are 15watts.. and well they run pretty darn loud for what they are..
J'
J'
Konnichiwa,
They are not completely bad, but those that manage some bass struggle in the midrange.
Beyma 15" Coaxial (or related drivers) will do the trick nicely.
Put into a 100 Liter box, drive actively, equalise the CD HF section for good HF esponse and equalise the 15" driver (sealed) to get the LF output you want, voila, a pointsource, 2 way active system that can play excellently both quiet and loud. Elsewhere Magnetar discusses this one and his experiences....
Sayonara
jleaman said:
They are not completely bad, but those that manage some bass struggle in the midrange.
jleaman said:
Beyma 15" Coaxial (or related drivers) will do the trick nicely.
Put into a 100 Liter box, drive actively, equalise the CD HF section for good HF esponse and equalise the 15" driver (sealed) to get the LF output you want, voila, a pointsource, 2 way active system that can play excellently both quiet and loud. Elsewhere Magnetar discusses this one and his experiences....
Sayonara
Hi KYW,
I don't have measuring equipement. Neither do I have the know-how to make an active equalizer. Would a standard PRO-unit, like those from Behringer be good enough?
I am not considering such a huge PRO sub, to take over from the SS ref. mon.'s, but maybe to take over from the bassboxes I'm planning to build now, and play the real sub-bass (below 40 hertz). To about 40 hertz not much cone-excursion is needed for high SPL, with a smaller hifi-woofer. Below 40 hertz the distortion-curve rises quickly.
So, i think that maybe later a huge PRO sub might be good for me, but for now i want smaller, but still high quality stereo bassboxes.
I don't have measuring equipement. Neither do I have the know-how to make an active equalizer. Would a standard PRO-unit, like those from Behringer be good enough?
I am not considering such a huge PRO sub, to take over from the SS ref. mon.'s, but maybe to take over from the bassboxes I'm planning to build now, and play the real sub-bass (below 40 hertz). To about 40 hertz not much cone-excursion is needed for high SPL, with a smaller hifi-woofer. Below 40 hertz the distortion-curve rises quickly.
So, i think that maybe later a huge PRO sub might be good for me, but for now i want smaller, but still high quality stereo bassboxes.
Konnichiwa,
You clearly have a PC. Does it have sound? Can you buy a Behringer ECM8000 Measurement mike and rig up a simple Mike Pre (Velleman Kit will do)?
Then you have measurement gear.
Sure, a DEQ2496 or even the smaller units should be fine. Just make sure you have parametric EQ's available.
You should. Honestly.
Use 15" Pro Woofers in 16" Cubes... ;-) Smaller, still a lot of SPL at 20Hz and all that, just not as much as 18". I personally run a pair of 12" Pro Woofers in a 15" Cubes sealed sub, which manages okay in my small room, a bit bigger would be good.
Sayonara
keyser said:
You clearly have a PC. Does it have sound? Can you buy a Behringer ECM8000 Measurement mike and rig up a simple Mike Pre (Velleman Kit will do)?
Then you have measurement gear.
keyser said:
Sure, a DEQ2496 or even the smaller units should be fine. Just make sure you have parametric EQ's available.
keyser said:
You should. Honestly.
keyser said:
Use 15" Pro Woofers in 16" Cubes... ;-) Smaller, still a lot of SPL at 20Hz and all that, just not as much as 18". I personally run a pair of 12" Pro Woofers in a 15" Cubes sealed sub, which manages okay in my small room, a bit bigger would be good.
Sayonara
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Let's say we'll actively cross between mid and woofer at 150Hz. Of course we'd like to have a flat frequency response as much as possible, so we'll have the same SPL at as large a frequency range as possible. This means that the Eminence would actually do 3dB less than the Peerless at 20Hz (given that amplification power is no problem.)
In my opinion this is often the case with pro drivers, the gain in efficiency is almost always at the expensive of a flat frequency response.
Personally I would not recommend the use of a pro driver for this reason, but I'm always open for discussion on this matter.
Kind regards,
Emiel
I do believe it might be a good option to go for a big PA driver in a big box (be it obviously with lots and lots of EQ), but it is simply too big for the room i have now. Moreover, i don't think i'll ever push any hifi-woofer to its max, atleast not in the place i live now! That's why i consider it to be a better option to maybe add such a huge sub later.
actually, I am not sure if it'd really be so much better than a good hifi-woofer: hifi-woofers are made for good quality sound.
PA-units are also made for good quality sound, but the high sensitivity (to save amplifier-power) and great powerhandling are often more important.
as i said before, i might consider using such a huge sub with lots of EQ in a later stadium, but for now I want 2 high-end woofers to start playing from about 150 hertz and down.
I've now also run the Peerless XXLS 10" in WinISD for a box of 120 liters: Qtc 0,59
The 12" version in the same box gives Qtc: 0,69
The ScanSpeak 23W/4557T00 in the same box gives Qtc of 0,56. Either 10" unit would do fine in a smaller box too, which has the advantage of building a more sturdy and deader box. The SS would still have a Q of only 0,6 in a 80 liters box!
I'll probably go for either of those 10 inchers. The SS goes a bit lower, and has greater linear excursion. But it is also considerably more expensive! If it is worth it, i'll go for that one tho...
actually, I am not sure if it'd really be so much better than a good hifi-woofer: hifi-woofers are made for good quality sound.
PA-units are also made for good quality sound, but the high sensitivity (to save amplifier-power) and great powerhandling are often more important.
as i said before, i might consider using such a huge sub with lots of EQ in a later stadium, but for now I want 2 high-end woofers to start playing from about 150 hertz and down.
I've now also run the Peerless XXLS 10" in WinISD for a box of 120 liters: Qtc 0,59
The 12" version in the same box gives Qtc: 0,69
The ScanSpeak 23W/4557T00 in the same box gives Qtc of 0,56. Either 10" unit would do fine in a smaller box too, which has the advantage of building a more sturdy and deader box. The SS would still have a Q of only 0,6 in a 80 liters box!
I'll probably go for either of those 10 inchers. The SS goes a bit lower, and has greater linear excursion. But it is also considerably more expensive! If it is worth it, i'll go for that one tho...
Konnichiwa,
Yup, completely agreed. Hence, like with any other driver we will take measures to equalise the response flat within the passband, which is absolutely standard practice in virtually any commercial speaker, be it one that uses passive or active crossovers these days, even nin Pro-Audio.
Nope, it will be only the case if you take the "utterly stupid" approach of using a textbook crossover in a "non textbook" solution.
Both Peerless XLS and Eminence Omega will need equalisation to give flat response and given that play very low added equalisation is needed to make sure the subwoofer is matched to the room, otherwise you are in significant trouble.
With Pro drivers the use of equalisation to get a flat response is accepted and assumed from the outset. HOWEVER, gieven that for example virtually ALL HiFi midbass drivers also have a seriously non-flat response and require equalisation in the midrange, so clearly in HiFi application equalisations
Personally I would not recommend most "HiFi" drivers because they cause by far to much compression and distortion, which unlike smooth deviations from a flat frequency response with a minimum phase behaviour, which is trivial to correct and which of course is present in most HiFi Drivers anyway.
Sayonara
Emiel said:
Yup, completely agreed. Hence, like with any other driver we will take measures to equalise the response flat within the passband, which is absolutely standard practice in virtually any commercial speaker, be it one that uses passive or active crossovers these days, even nin Pro-Audio.
Emiel said:
Nope, it will be only the case if you take the "utterly stupid" approach of using a textbook crossover in a "non textbook" solution.
Both Peerless XLS and Eminence Omega will need equalisation to give flat response and given that play very low added equalisation is needed to make sure the subwoofer is matched to the room, otherwise you are in significant trouble.
Emiel said:
With Pro drivers the use of equalisation to get a flat response is accepted and assumed from the outset. HOWEVER, gieven that for example virtually ALL HiFi midbass drivers also have a seriously non-flat response and require equalisation in the midrange, so clearly in HiFi application equalisations
Emiel said:
Personally I would not recommend most "HiFi" drivers because they cause by far to much compression and distortion, which unlike smooth deviations from a flat frequency response with a minimum phase behaviour, which is trivial to correct and which of course is present in most HiFi Drivers anyway.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa Kuei Yang Wang!
I agree on the fact that in almost all case EQ for subs is needed, but I was refering to the frequence response of the units without EQ, just to make the statement of natural flat frequency response of the units.
I'm not fimiliar with the phrase 'compression' the way you are using it here.
I'm always willing to learn so could you explain it to me?
BTW: I've heard quite a lot of well-known and expensive PA speaker systems, but I've always found them far inferior (sound-wise) to my DIY 'HiFi' speaker system. This is very off-topic though, maybe we could start a new topic on the pre's and con's of the use of PA units in home audio setups.
Kind regards, Emiel
Kuei Yang Wang said:
I agree on the fact that in almost all case EQ for subs is needed, but I was refering to the frequence response of the units without EQ, just to make the statement of natural flat frequency response of the units.
Kuei Yang Wang said:
I'm not fimiliar with the phrase 'compression' the way you are using it here.
I'm always willing to learn so could you explain it to me?
BTW: I've heard quite a lot of well-known and expensive PA speaker systems, but I've always found them far inferior (sound-wise) to my DIY 'HiFi' speaker system. This is very off-topic though, maybe we could start a new topic on the pre's and con's of the use of PA units in home audio setups.
Kind regards, Emiel
Konnichiwa
Try this:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jun02/articles/monitors.asp
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jul02/articles/monitors2.asp
Sayonara
Emiel said:
Try this:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jun02/articles/monitors.asp
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jul02/articles/monitors2.asp
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
Have two more from SOS if you liked these:
MONITORS DEMYSTIFIED Part 1
MONITORS DEMYSTIFIED Part 2
Sayonara
Emiel said:
Have two more from SOS if you liked these:
MONITORS DEMYSTIFIED Part 1
MONITORS DEMYSTIFIED Part 2
Sayonara
It is now very likely that i'll buy a set of W23 's next friday.
I'll repete here what i want from a woofer:
* flat frequency response
* tight and controlled sound (closed box, low Qtc? --> low group-delay)
* reasonably deep
* a box not bigger than 100 - 120 Liters (which I already concider rather big)
I'm willing to sacrifice some efficiency, because it will be driven actively by a powerful seperate amp. No extremely high volume-levels are needed; but I do want it to be able to cope with bass-peaks in most music played at realistic levels.
I've already ruled out the ideal of using a big PRO-driver, because i simply don't have the space for it (maybe something for a later day).
does anyone have a suggestion for a better driver for the system i'm going to build? If not, I will order the Scan Speaks on friday.
I'll repete here what i want from a woofer:
* flat frequency response
* tight and controlled sound (closed box, low Qtc? --> low group-delay)
* reasonably deep
* a box not bigger than 100 - 120 Liters (which I already concider rather big)
I'm willing to sacrifice some efficiency, because it will be driven actively by a powerful seperate amp. No extremely high volume-levels are needed; but I do want it to be able to cope with bass-peaks in most music played at realistic levels.
I've already ruled out the ideal of using a big PRO-driver, because i simply don't have the space for it (maybe something for a later day).
does anyone have a suggestion for a better driver for the system i'm going to build? If not, I will order the Scan Speaks on friday.
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