Certainly ive seen this site months ago. But with any new 'results' it must be confirmed by others.
For the last 50 years we thought we needed low distortion,I need more proof.
But box size?
There will be reasons why these units are so much more cheaper. If distortion can be high without anyone caring,why do companys like jbl go to the effort of flux shorting rings and, THD below 1% as much as possible.
Re: inductance,that adire paper makes sense, but again,people enjoy the sound of high inductance motors - you dont see them complaining! The differences indicated are very tiny in that paper, seemingly not applicable to 50hz tones. I cant see how it applies to subwoofers in the time domain-if you can,please enlighten me!
Regards
Mike.e
Have you actually downloaded the samples and given it some serious consideration? The samples give a clear indication, what more do you need?
The reasons they are cheaper may be:
* they are a new company starting with very competitive prices since they market won't pay as much for drivers from a lesser known company
* lower xmax which allows them to make a design which is a lot cheaper - note in particular the magnet design and their comments on theirs vs dual stacked magnets
I think you are missing the point entirely. It's not that distortion is not significant. Rather, it is the way distortion is measured does not correlate with perception. Perception does not correlate to THD or IMD, but rather to the shape and nature of the distortion, which is better reflected in the Gedless metric.
You probably aren't going to see any for quite some time. The audio industry is content to believe a lot of things with or without credible evidence/theory backing up. I'd like to think that the industry would in the future dispense with the idea that THD is an indicator of sound quality, but I'm not sure it will happen. Still, as a DIY enthusiast, I'd rather have a more accurate view and not be misled by myths.
Regarding transient response, I can't say I've reached a conclusion on exactly how important it is in relation to other factors. All I can say is "less is more!" where more = better performance. I have not had a chance to compare the sound where transient response is the only thing altered.
I have always thought that IB and open baffle have the ideal transient response, however, the Adire paper would suggest that the effect of a box and its damping is equivalent to mass loading a cone, which affects the frequency response but does nothing in the time domain.
Nope because their wave files and I dont have internet at home at the moment.
Its interesting,but tests that are uncontrolled and with random listeners, PCs, soundcards,headphones cause different results.
Im all for tests and proof.
Perhaps that is so,but the truth will eventually come out. My issue is that there seems to be old evidence for low distortion,and this one article by earl geddes is interesting,but in order to be credible,it must be backed up and replicated. If it is true,then it will happen-and I wouldnt be suprised if it did.
Me either,particulary in the Adire case when theres a slight phase lag on the inductive driver, consider the wavelengths involved at 50hz and if the ear could detect it... Perhaps above 100hz where subwoofers are already rolling off...
Theoretically I would agree about open baffle, due to its slow roll off. But then the steady state distortion is higher.
Consider the sealed box when the air mass increases the Fs.
My question is, that seemingly tiny lag in response with the inductive driver,if its so audible,why are only a few manufacturers going for the low LE route.
Im not attempting to make argument,its just that I have my view on things,we both enjoy the technical side,so its good.
Regards
Mike.e
I downloaded them quite some time ago, and what I recall is that the samples with a high THD and IMD were actually cleaner than those which were lower. The point is that such measures are not smart enough to correlate to perception accurately. However, the Gedlee metric correlates very well. You really need to hear them for yourself to make a judgement.
Can you point me to some?
The low distortion issue has often been discussed in relation to tube vs solid state amplifiers. As you well know, many consider higher distortion tube amps superior, more true to life, and more musical. I suspect the comments often made about tube amps are related to what happens to them when they are clipping and their distortion increases. My point is that the industry is not unified in the view that low THD is always better, so it is not a matter of Earl vs the rest of the world! I would say it's more of an assumption made in the absence of anyone questioning that assumption and doing work to prove otherwise.
Good point, I wonder the same thing.
There are a few different components to transient response, or impulse response:
1: the timing of the peaks
2: the amplitude of the peaks
3: overshoot
The Adire paper focused on the time aspect. In another thread on horns vs dipoles a comparison of horns, sealed and reflex boxes was shown in terms of impulse response, and it was difficult to tell which was best, apart from the dipole which was clearly the most accurate. The reflex box compressed the amplitude of the peaks.
When it comes to subwoofers, there are quite a few aiming for low LE. Lambda used a lot of tricks to lower LE, and now John at AE speakers are using those same tricks. Adire is the obvious one, along with RE audio, Creative Sound Solutions and Ascendant Audio. Rythmik Audio have a driver designed to have a low LE. As far as DIY subs go, that's quite a lot of them!
Getting back to the original post ...
Perhaps an option to consider is to make a vented box for your Rava sub, then get another plate amp and Shiva, and make a 2nd. You could make them tall and keep the same small footprint of the Rava. The unfortunate thing is that when you sell things secondhand, you often have to accept a price a lot lower than the new value. You need to buy drivers anyway, but perhaps you could sell the enclosure.
If you do sell, then I'd consider a pair of 12" drivers in tall slim vented boxes. 15" drivers will give you a little more output for a little more cost, with a much bigger box. A driver like the Atlas 12 seems to want a 120L vented box, but AA recommend 180L box for the Atlas 15 for probably only 3db extra output.
If you did want just one big sub in a corner, another way to go would be the Avalanch18. AA suggest a 12 cu ft box tuned at 16 Hz. You could do this with a 18" internal footprint and 1.7m high, not allowing for the vent and volume displaced by the driver. Yes, it's quite big but you could put it in a corner and the footprint isn't that big. You could power it either with a 1kw plate amp or with a PA amp that can bridge into 4 ohms. This would have more output than the Tumult and be cheaper - the driver itself is cheaper and you don't need as much power. While the Tumult has more excursion, it needs a lot of power to use it all.
I'm not suggesting the Tumult is a bad idea. It's a great driver, very difficult to improve. However, to achieve it's goal, to achieve massive output and extension in a small (for a 15" driver) box, you need a lot of power. Hence it is an expensive way to make bass, so I'm just suggesting some alternatives.
More excursion yes, but the Avalanche 18 displaces more air, 6.5 liters versus 5 liters.
It needs a very big box compared to the Tumult on the other way.
It needs a very big box compared to the Tumult on the other way.
Yes about 30% more VC which translates into 1.8db more theoretical output. In practice, the Avalanch is likely to use more of its theoretical output limit since less power and excursion are involved.
Then again, the difference in output might be a bit like the difference between trying to lift 100 kg and 101 kg!
It's probably more of a matter of how much do you want to spend and how big can you handle your box.
Then again, the difference in output might be a bit like the difference between trying to lift 100 kg and 101 kg!
It's probably more of a matter of how much do you want to spend and how big can you handle your box.
paulspencer said:
My argument is,that my subjective experience isnt enough to put trust in some test.
Olsen engineering will have heaps.I cant afford AES papers,but in high performance loudspeakers by martin colloms,he quotes SEVERAL guys in the last while doing single tone tests and distortion-il have to go read it again sometime.
Sure the existing state of '0.5% maximum THD in the midrange' is here right now,but in order to change the minds of the technically minded,real proof must be supplied. Certainly measurements are just measurements and need interpretation and understanding of the auditory system.
Nope its not the world vs Geddes,but I havent heard of any study in the past that came to similar conclusions.
Also here we are talking about loudspeaker distortion consisting of mainly 2nd and 3rd HD at moderate levels with increasing sensitivity of the ear to the higher harmonics. I really dont see how amplifiers come into the distortion problems of HIFI.
Amplifier distortion have different orders depending on topology and device,and its opening another whole can of worms 😀
Yes the number is increasing,one would hope the design choice has real technical merit, I dont see technical papers explaining why other than the adire one which is dubious,to me.
Cheers!
😀
I firmly believe LE affects bass. Just take 2 pairs of cheap woofers. Wire one pair in series and one pair in parallel. The mushy transients is much more noticeable in the series connected pair with the only difference being that it's LE is 4 time greater than the parallel connected pair.
Got a link to Olsen Engineering?
Mike, why do I get the feeling that this has opened up a can of worms so big it could lead to one of those massively long debates?!!!!
Interesting point, John, I'll have to try it sometime.
Mike, why do I get the feeling that this has opened up a can of worms so big it could lead to one of those massively long debates?!!!!
Interesting point, John, I'll have to try it sometime.
johninCR said:
Le is four times higher and resistance is also four times higher.
Le is still the same percentage of the resistive part of the woofer.
If you heard a difference, it's probably your amplifier.
If there was a difference, everyone would be using 1 ohms speakers with Le under 0.2 mH.
Quite the discussion going on here, learning something new everyday...
Anyways, it's been a while since I've checked in on the forum, and I've actually already been checking out the Atlas subs. I'll probaably go with a pair of Atlas 15's ported, not sure whether I'll do separate boxes or not yet. Other option is to go with 4 15's, not really sure if that's necessary, but it'd be fun to hear/feel the results.
Any recommendations on a decent power amp for them? My only real stipulation is that it be fairly quiet, you know for those parts in movies where stuff isn't blowing up. Thanks for posting guys, you're helping out a lot--Oh by the way, is it necessary to go double thick walls on the box if its ported? I probably will anyways just because MDF is cheap and I believe in building things way stronger than needed (engineer in training here at ISU), but I'm just curious. Thanks again!
Anyways, it's been a while since I've checked in on the forum, and I've actually already been checking out the Atlas subs. I'll probaably go with a pair of Atlas 15's ported, not sure whether I'll do separate boxes or not yet. Other option is to go with 4 15's, not really sure if that's necessary, but it'd be fun to hear/feel the results.
Any recommendations on a decent power amp for them? My only real stipulation is that it be fairly quiet, you know for those parts in movies where stuff isn't blowing up. Thanks for posting guys, you're helping out a lot--Oh by the way, is it necessary to go double thick walls on the box if its ported? I probably will anyways just because MDF is cheap and I believe in building things way stronger than needed (engineer in training here at ISU), but I'm just curious. Thanks again!
Danvan,
I've gone with a PA amp that is stable down to 2 ohms with massive power but for that you need either a fan or to pay a crazy amount. In my search I found 350w PA second hand amps which were stable down to 4 ohms at a good price. That is one option possible with Atlas subs which don't need too much power. I don't use mine at 2 ohms but I like to have something robust. I could use it to get 2.4kw into 4 ohms bridged mono, or 2x 1.2 kw into 2 ohms, or 2 x 650w into 4 ohms, this thing could power 4 Atlas subs, or two of mine.
Consider PA amps as a possible economical way to get something robust. Ive found them to have more authority subjectively when compared to plate amps. Some of them don't have fans, but those that do will annoy you with movies. If you don't mind taking care of a crossover/filters for them, it's worth considering. I can't really suggest what you look at outside of Australia though.
I've gone with a PA amp that is stable down to 2 ohms with massive power but for that you need either a fan or to pay a crazy amount. In my search I found 350w PA second hand amps which were stable down to 4 ohms at a good price. That is one option possible with Atlas subs which don't need too much power. I don't use mine at 2 ohms but I like to have something robust. I could use it to get 2.4kw into 4 ohms bridged mono, or 2x 1.2 kw into 2 ohms, or 2 x 650w into 4 ohms, this thing could power 4 Atlas subs, or two of mine.
Consider PA amps as a possible economical way to get something robust. Ive found them to have more authority subjectively when compared to plate amps. Some of them don't have fans, but those that do will annoy you with movies. If you don't mind taking care of a crossover/filters for them, it's worth considering. I can't really suggest what you look at outside of Australia though.
Well, for the amplifiers, it depends on how large are your boxes and how much drivers per box.
If you need 250W or 350W plate amplifiers, go with Rythmik Audio, if you need more, go with PartExpress 500W and 1000W plate amplifiers. Best price/performance ratio.
If you need 250W or 350W plate amplifiers, go with Rythmik Audio, if you need more, go with PartExpress 500W and 1000W plate amplifiers. Best price/performance ratio.
Yeah I was thinking a PA amp would be the way to go, the fan is bothersome, but maybe I can put it on the otherside of the wall or something...
That brings up another question though, are there any decent subwoofer preamps out there? Or should I just get an equalizer. My receiver (H/K 7200) can set the crossover points which should deal with it ok I would think, guess I'll try that with the Rava and see, just crank up the crossover on the sub and have a listen I spose.
That brings up another question though, are there any decent subwoofer preamps out there? Or should I just get an equalizer. My receiver (H/K 7200) can set the crossover points which should deal with it ok I would think, guess I'll try that with the Rava and see, just crank up the crossover on the sub and have a listen I spose.
Simon seems to think that plate amps are the best value. I can't comment on that where you are, but here in Australia my amp was much cheaper than AU $630 and I would have needed 2 plate amps which would cost a lot more to get the same power.
One great thing about plate amps is that they have an auto on/off function which is nice. With my amp it's another thing I have to turn on/off and I have one piece of equipment that sends a thump through the subs when I turn it off, even when the sub amp has been turned off, since the PS caps still have power in them 30 sec after turn off!
It's not so much a "subwoofer preamp" ... but a series of filters, or "subwoofer processor." You can diy it, there are kits, and you can get help on this forum.
I suggest you do some hunting and find out what is good value. Keep an open mind. I prefer PA amps in general because:
* I don't make boxes in which a plate amp will fit, and I don't have to make a funny box for it
* IME PA amps sound better for subs (based on an AB comparison where only the amp was changed)
* more economical in my case
* I don't have to change anything on the preamp which could affect warranty (like disable bass boost, etc)
However, I can see how plate amps suit most people better. They are hassle free, quiet and do a good job. They seem to be cheaper in the US compared to PA amps, than they are here.
One great thing about plate amps is that they have an auto on/off function which is nice. With my amp it's another thing I have to turn on/off and I have one piece of equipment that sends a thump through the subs when I turn it off, even when the sub amp has been turned off, since the PS caps still have power in them 30 sec after turn off!
It's not so much a "subwoofer preamp" ... but a series of filters, or "subwoofer processor." You can diy it, there are kits, and you can get help on this forum.
I suggest you do some hunting and find out what is good value. Keep an open mind. I prefer PA amps in general because:
* I don't make boxes in which a plate amp will fit, and I don't have to make a funny box for it
* IME PA amps sound better for subs (based on an AB comparison where only the amp was changed)
* more economical in my case
* I don't have to change anything on the preamp which could affect warranty (like disable bass boost, etc)
However, I can see how plate amps suit most people better. They are hassle free, quiet and do a good job. They seem to be cheaper in the US compared to PA amps, than they are here.
Yeah I was talking about price/performance ratio...
119$ for 250W RMS into 4 ohms
159$ for 380W RMS into 4 ohms
298$ for 500W RMS into 4 ohms
398$ for 1000W RMS into 4 ohms
This is hard to beat, except if you use eBay.
You can go with QSC RMX amplifiers also, a bit more powerful...
299$ 830W RMS into 4 ohms
399$ 1400W RMS into 4 ohms
But then you get fan noise, I heard that these amplifiers are noisy enough to annoy some people on low level listening or silence passages. It would probably not annoy the usual PC user.
119$ for 250W RMS into 4 ohms
159$ for 380W RMS into 4 ohms
298$ for 500W RMS into 4 ohms
398$ for 1000W RMS into 4 ohms
This is hard to beat, except if you use eBay.
You can go with QSC RMX amplifiers also, a bit more powerful...
299$ 830W RMS into 4 ohms
399$ 1400W RMS into 4 ohms
But then you get fan noise, I heard that these amplifiers are noisy enough to annoy some people on low level listening or silence passages. It would probably not annoy the usual PC user.
Simon, you are right about the fan noise, it is a problem with movies that have quiet passages. Very few movies are without moments where the overall level is low and you can hear just about any fan in a PA amp. There are ways to deal with this however.
Secondhand is worth considering, especially if you can find a 2ndhand dealer who offers some degree of warranty protection. Also you can get some PA amps without fans, typically the ones only stable to 4 ohms with say 350w.
The Behringer EP2500 retails for $360 in the US, however you never pay RRP for PA stuff, it's very competitive and you can always get a big discount if you shop around. I paid less than 70% of RRP, so if you get the same, then its only $250!
Now suppose you pick it up for that, you can then get:
1 x 2.4kw into 4 ohms
2 x 1.2kw ~ 2 ohms
2 x 650w ~ 4 ohms
The beauty of a PA amp is that you can get 2 ohm stability, which means flexibility, since you can bridge mono into 4 ohms to power something like the Tumult, or drive a pair of power hungry subs or drive 4 - 8 drivers that have more moderate power requirements. If you had an IB setup then an amp like this would be ideal as you could install it out of the way, say with the drivers to get rid of fan noise, and it could power as many drivers as you would be likely to use.
That is a far better price/performance ratio than any of those plate amps from a power amp point of view.
I have heard of another amp in another thread that had an even better price/performance ratio, although I can't recall what it was.
EDIT: Simon, were you talking USD?
Secondhand is worth considering, especially if you can find a 2ndhand dealer who offers some degree of warranty protection. Also you can get some PA amps without fans, typically the ones only stable to 4 ohms with say 350w.
The Behringer EP2500 retails for $360 in the US, however you never pay RRP for PA stuff, it's very competitive and you can always get a big discount if you shop around. I paid less than 70% of RRP, so if you get the same, then its only $250!
Now suppose you pick it up for that, you can then get:
1 x 2.4kw into 4 ohms
2 x 1.2kw ~ 2 ohms
2 x 650w ~ 4 ohms
The beauty of a PA amp is that you can get 2 ohm stability, which means flexibility, since you can bridge mono into 4 ohms to power something like the Tumult, or drive a pair of power hungry subs or drive 4 - 8 drivers that have more moderate power requirements. If you had an IB setup then an amp like this would be ideal as you could install it out of the way, say with the drivers to get rid of fan noise, and it could power as many drivers as you would be likely to use.
That is a far better price/performance ratio than any of those plate amps from a power amp point of view.
I have heard of another amp in another thread that had an even better price/performance ratio, although I can't recall what it was.
EDIT: Simon, were you talking USD?
Well, I've been discussing my needs with some friends of mine that I'll be living with come August. Fortunately it'll be in a house, but we won't own it so still no IB :/ Anyways, I decided a larger sealed sub will be the way to go. I figure that musicality is more important than anything else, if I need more bass I'll build a second sub just like the first. I'll be going with a 15" sub for sure, not really aure of which to use though...I've narrowed it down to the two listed below.
Stryke Audio AV15, 205USD
Atlas 15, 160USD
I've sort of ruled out the Tempest since the Atlas seems to be a much better sub for the money, and for the price of the Tumult I can just get 2 (or more) of sometihng else. The Avalanche was also a great suggestion, but for the money I could just get a pair of Atlas'. I haven't heard much about Styke audio however, does anybody have an opinion about their performance? According to their website, the AV15 has an xmax of 23mm (doesn't say if that's one way or not) which 'could' be more than the Atlas. I'm unsure whether XBL2 is necessary, I've never heard a sub with it and don't see how low distortion affects a subwoofer anyways since it would be mostly inaudible.
Basically I'm leaving this up to you guys, which of these two subs would be the best to go with? By the way I'm definitely pairing up on these. I'll be making a single box with both drivers in it, each in its own enclosure. I'll probably pick up one of those Behringers to power it, only 250USD or so on ebay. Thanks again guys.
Oh yeah, and if anybody knows a site (or place) that sells (or discusses) 'subwoofer processors' let me know, I haven't had much luck finding anything in this forum, but then again there are a lot of threads to look through.
Stryke Audio AV15, 205USD
Atlas 15, 160USD
I've sort of ruled out the Tempest since the Atlas seems to be a much better sub for the money, and for the price of the Tumult I can just get 2 (or more) of sometihng else. The Avalanche was also a great suggestion, but for the money I could just get a pair of Atlas'. I haven't heard much about Styke audio however, does anybody have an opinion about their performance? According to their website, the AV15 has an xmax of 23mm (doesn't say if that's one way or not) which 'could' be more than the Atlas. I'm unsure whether XBL2 is necessary, I've never heard a sub with it and don't see how low distortion affects a subwoofer anyways since it would be mostly inaudible.
Basically I'm leaving this up to you guys, which of these two subs would be the best to go with? By the way I'm definitely pairing up on these. I'll be making a single box with both drivers in it, each in its own enclosure. I'll probably pick up one of those Behringers to power it, only 250USD or so on ebay. Thanks again guys.
Oh yeah, and if anybody knows a site (or place) that sells (or discusses) 'subwoofer processors' let me know, I haven't had much luck finding anything in this forum, but then again there are a lot of threads to look through.
I've not done this so can't comment on the audible difference, but it's often suggested that two drivers used in this way should share the air and fire away from each other, cancelling forces, and reducing cabinet colouration. If you want them in separate enclosures, make them properly separate and use them as a stereo pair, which will potentially provide better imaging and cancel one set of room modes 🙂danvan said:
Danvan, the AV15 and the Atlas are two very different drivers. On paper the Atlas has a very nice motor system which is very linear, lowest inductance of any real sub I've seen. The AV15 is a more conventional design and has a higher inductance, although it is lower than the Tumult which no one seems to complain about! The Atlas is going to have a better transient response on paper, and most likely lower distortion. It appears to me a bit like a better quality version of the Tumult, both like big boxes.
The excursion of the AV15 is one way 23mm. The suspension system has a 30mm limit, hence it can support 60mm excursions. It's a driver very difficult to bottom, not for the faint of heart.
A great thing about the AV series is that you can often pick them up very cheap in the pre-order period. I got my AV12s for $120 each, so I got them for less than the Shiva, and they are a whole lot more impressive.
I like having two subs rather than one. I chose AV12 as the output is not much less than the AV15 (only difference is SD) but the box is smaller. With a pair of 60L vented subs I can get 118 db down to near 20 Hz. Having two drivers I find means they are idling 99% of the time. I have at times replayed bass heavy parts of DVDs just to see how much they are moving, only to find the excursion is so low they aren't moving much at all.
If you look at AV15 vs Atlas 15 there are 2 main differences:
1. AV15 - smaller box, bigger xmax, big amp 500 - 1000w
vs
Atlas - big box, less xmax, medium amp 250 - 500w
2. The Atlas has a more linear motor design
In a vented box the AV15 is going to have excursion to spare, whereas you can use all the excursion of the Atlas I'd expect with a 250 - 350w amp.
In a sealed box I'd be using a Linkwitz Transform. This means more excursion is now required, and the higher xmax of the AV15 would be useful to have. It also means less power needed for this driver. You can easily make a cube that isn't much bigger than the driver when you are using an LT.
I'm a little biased toward the AV subs for style reasons - it's presented very nicely and the brushed aluminium cone looks fantastic. The parameters allow you to get it in a box that you can make elegant and stylish. The AV12 models well in a box half the size of the Shiva. Why they are not as popular as the Shiva remains a mystery to me, it may be that the Shiva came first and most diyers feel safer copying what they have seen many others do. If there was an XBL2 version of the AV12 then it would be a clear winner (for me at least).
There are good reasons to choose the AV15, and good reasons to choose the Atlas 15. It comes down to your preferences and priorities, although in a small sealed box with a Linkwitz transform you might find the Atlas has the advantage. If you change your mind and want to go vented, the Atlas is a pain as it would get very big.
If you go with 2 drivers in one box, then mount them push-pull for lower distortion. If you put them in sep boxes, then you can go stereo subs or you can place them to get smooth in-room response. I find sep subs can be more unobtrusive and flexible to place in the best locations. Unless there is only one spot you can put your subs, I'd make them sep.
The excursion of the AV15 is one way 23mm. The suspension system has a 30mm limit, hence it can support 60mm excursions. It's a driver very difficult to bottom, not for the faint of heart.
A great thing about the AV series is that you can often pick them up very cheap in the pre-order period. I got my AV12s for $120 each, so I got them for less than the Shiva, and they are a whole lot more impressive.
I like having two subs rather than one. I chose AV12 as the output is not much less than the AV15 (only difference is SD) but the box is smaller. With a pair of 60L vented subs I can get 118 db down to near 20 Hz. Having two drivers I find means they are idling 99% of the time. I have at times replayed bass heavy parts of DVDs just to see how much they are moving, only to find the excursion is so low they aren't moving much at all.
If you look at AV15 vs Atlas 15 there are 2 main differences:
1. AV15 - smaller box, bigger xmax, big amp 500 - 1000w
vs
Atlas - big box, less xmax, medium amp 250 - 500w
2. The Atlas has a more linear motor design
In a vented box the AV15 is going to have excursion to spare, whereas you can use all the excursion of the Atlas I'd expect with a 250 - 350w amp.
In a sealed box I'd be using a Linkwitz Transform. This means more excursion is now required, and the higher xmax of the AV15 would be useful to have. It also means less power needed for this driver. You can easily make a cube that isn't much bigger than the driver when you are using an LT.
I'm a little biased toward the AV subs for style reasons - it's presented very nicely and the brushed aluminium cone looks fantastic. The parameters allow you to get it in a box that you can make elegant and stylish. The AV12 models well in a box half the size of the Shiva. Why they are not as popular as the Shiva remains a mystery to me, it may be that the Shiva came first and most diyers feel safer copying what they have seen many others do. If there was an XBL2 version of the AV12 then it would be a clear winner (for me at least).
There are good reasons to choose the AV15, and good reasons to choose the Atlas 15. It comes down to your preferences and priorities, although in a small sealed box with a Linkwitz transform you might find the Atlas has the advantage. If you change your mind and want to go vented, the Atlas is a pain as it would get very big.
If you go with 2 drivers in one box, then mount them push-pull for lower distortion. If you put them in sep boxes, then you can go stereo subs or you can place them to get smooth in-room response. I find sep subs can be more unobtrusive and flexible to place in the best locations. Unless there is only one spot you can put your subs, I'd make them sep.
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