nannoo, what do you mean by you have worked a lot with B&Ws? Do you mean you have worked as a designer with them or that you have played with them on your system?
I personally don't fully agree with the coloring or voicing part; I indeed have rather the opposite impression. To me, they offer a sense of realm and ease on the sound that many other speakers on the same price range I have tried don't have.
I find them to be really accurate in timber of instruments and they have great 3D reproduction. The speaker totally disappears from the soundstage which is a big benefit.
Said that, I am sure there are better speakers that I have not listened to yet.
I would be curious, what speaker do you have that you feel sounds significantly better than the the B&W and what B&W are you referring to? One specific model or all of them?
I would personally have to hear a crossover done specifically for my speaker to see if it can be further improved, I am not sure why you think the XO is a joke, when B&W is one of the few manufacturers the designs drivers in the house.
That tells me that they at least should have the know how to produce a proper crossover for the drivers they design.
I mean this is just my opinion, but I am interested to know more about yours if you want to share it.
I personally don't fully agree with the coloring or voicing part; I indeed have rather the opposite impression. To me, they offer a sense of realm and ease on the sound that many other speakers on the same price range I have tried don't have.
I find them to be really accurate in timber of instruments and they have great 3D reproduction. The speaker totally disappears from the soundstage which is a big benefit.
Said that, I am sure there are better speakers that I have not listened to yet.
I would be curious, what speaker do you have that you feel sounds significantly better than the the B&W and what B&W are you referring to? One specific model or all of them?
I would personally have to hear a crossover done specifically for my speaker to see if it can be further improved, I am not sure why you think the XO is a joke, when B&W is one of the few manufacturers the designs drivers in the house.
That tells me that they at least should have the know how to produce a proper crossover for the drivers they design.
I mean this is just my opinion, but I am interested to know more about yours if you want to share it.
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I couldn't quote this more!!! good lord put it back the way it was intended that is a reference speaker!!!
EDIT: Maybe I have been too judgmental, would you mind explaining the improvements you hear, who gave you the idea of implementing these drivers on that speaker, who designed the active crossover and the proper cutoff frequency and slopes and last but not least important, please detail your sound system from source to preamp power amp and cables used.
Thanks for sharing your experiment.
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Most speakers are 'voiced' to some extent, be it by accident or design.
I've heard my share of 'flat' speakers over the years, including the latest Revel Ultima's, and as flat as they measure they still don't always sound completely accurate. I would class B&W's as excellent all-rounders. In the right room and driven by the right amps they are very capable wide-band monitors.
It's worth keeping in mind too that B&W 800's are used in many mastering studios, so it makes sense to use them for hi-fi playback. You can't get better accuracy than to use the same speakers for the playback that were used in the mastering.
Fully agree with you, I had the same thought in mind about studio mastering.
To my ears, the B&W800s, if properly driven (but this in my experience applies to all B&W from the 805s up) which includes really having top quality on everything from source down to the cables, produce the most neutral and all-round sound compared to many other speakers on the same price range.
Revel and Magico are other speaker brands worth looking at as well
I know it's not everyones cup of tea.
It's just that I had to find out what would happen if I took the best driver and put it in the best housing
Some more pictures in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/260426-all-you-b-w-n801-n802-owners.html
About the rest of my system it's mainly a digital setup even though I can play vinyl through an ADC (DEQ2496).
My DAC and amplifier can be seen in this thread from the Swedish Hififorum:
HiFiForum.nu - hos deerhunt - B&W801 vs Accuton/Raven
It's in Swedish of course but the pictures can be understood I guess!
So the order of units is:
SBv3 Classic or USB Minidigi USBStreamer or Vinyl through DEQ2496
Twisted Pear SPDIF 4:1
SPDIF to Nanodigi to make the active crossover for bass.
Nanodigi o/p to Buffalo2 DAC/IVY
For mid/tweeter I take I2S from TP SPDIF 4:1 directly to Buffalo3SE/Legato.
Power amp is built around ICE-power 500A and a 1500VA transformer each side.
After some tests I'm not letting the signal to mid/tweeter pass through the Nanodigi as it takes away some of the magic.
With I2S directly it makes the sound pretty amazing
It's just that I had to find out what would happen if I took the best driver and put it in the best housing
Some more pictures in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/260426-all-you-b-w-n801-n802-owners.html
About the rest of my system it's mainly a digital setup even though I can play vinyl through an ADC (DEQ2496).
My DAC and amplifier can be seen in this thread from the Swedish Hififorum:
HiFiForum.nu - hos deerhunt - B&W801 vs Accuton/Raven
It's in Swedish of course but the pictures can be understood I guess!
So the order of units is:
SBv3 Classic or USB Minidigi USBStreamer or Vinyl through DEQ2496
Twisted Pear SPDIF 4:1
SPDIF to Nanodigi to make the active crossover for bass.
Nanodigi o/p to Buffalo2 DAC/IVY
For mid/tweeter I take I2S from TP SPDIF 4:1 directly to Buffalo3SE/Legato.
Power amp is built around ICE-power 500A and a 1500VA transformer each side.
After some tests I'm not letting the signal to mid/tweeter pass through the Nanodigi as it takes away some of the magic.
With I2S directly it makes the sound pretty amazing
derrhunt,
hopefully I am not being offensive to you if so my apologies in advance and also thanks for sharing your project.
However if you want a good advice, put it back the way it was, sell these components you got which are not cheap and save up some $$ to be able to drive your speakers with proper equipment and you will then at that point be able to make an educated decision as to whether you need to still upgrade your drivers or not.
Keep in mind that the midrange by B&W is particularly well built and already highly priced by many as a very clear and natural mid range sound.
Another solution would be to go listen to pair of 801 or 800 where they have it hook up with top of the line audio gear and see if you still like it or not.
hopefully I am not being offensive to you if so my apologies in advance and also thanks for sharing your project.
However if you want a good advice, put it back the way it was, sell these components you got which are not cheap and save up some $$ to be able to drive your speakers with proper equipment and you will then at that point be able to make an educated decision as to whether you need to still upgrade your drivers or not.
Keep in mind that the midrange by B&W is particularly well built and already highly priced by many as a very clear and natural mid range sound.
Another solution would be to go listen to pair of 801 or 800 where they have it hook up with top of the line audio gear and see if you still like it or not.
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Your apologies are accepted, but let me give you some "good advise" as well.
Don't write
1. condescending about others gear "proper equipment"!
2. condescending about others taste "let me give you a good advise"!
3. and don't assume that we hear the same!
If you alreday know the answer to how these speakers sound then don't ask me about that.
Have a nice day!
Hace a nice day!
I wasn't trying to be condescending, I was truly trying to give you an advice that I feel is true in the general sense. I don't think I am crazy by saying that the audio equipment, cables you have is probably not capable of showing you the true potential of a reference speakers such as N801.
That is why I suggested you to go to a store that demos the top of the line B&W and hear it there.
However I am glad you like it like that and if we were close I would have loved with your permission to listen to it too.
People all hear slightly different and have widely different tastes.
The only thing I would keep in mind is that the drivers you have taken out are not only among the very finest but also and especially are designed for that particular speaker along with a particular crossover.
Said that, obviously, you prefer it that way is totally ok with me and surely with everybody else, but if you check the thread you have posted in here, I don't see anybody expressing a very different opinion.
Edit: I think you have a very high quality craftsmanship, seeing other projects of yours on the other forum! Nice job!
That is why I suggested you to go to a store that demos the top of the line B&W and hear it there.
However I am glad you like it like that and if we were close I would have loved with your permission to listen to it too.
People all hear slightly different and have widely different tastes.
The only thing I would keep in mind is that the drivers you have taken out are not only among the very finest but also and especially are designed for that particular speaker along with a particular crossover.
Said that, obviously, you prefer it that way is totally ok with me and surely with everybody else, but if you check the thread you have posted in here, I don't see anybody expressing a very different opinion.
Edit: I think you have a very high quality craftsmanship, seeing other projects of yours on the other forum! Nice job!
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I can't say too much but the schematics are freely available, dig deeper and you'll see what changed in the the last few decades. Doesn't take a genius to join the dots.
Also, look at who's in charge of product dev.
Ok, maybe he shouldn't have said 'proper equipment' maybe 'equally capable' would be better.
B&W make possibly the best mid-range driver in the world, even next to an accuton. Don't be surprised when people react this way when you pull that out of an enclosure it was designed for and shove in a load of what looks like hap-hazardly strung together equipment of a lower grade than the speakers themselves in order to make it work.
I would bet money the difference you're hearing is psychological, I doubt it is 'better', but by all means, if you like it and it makes you happy why not.
yes...you got an interesting point. I would be mostly interested in seeing who is the designer of each revision.
Is is the same person? I am assuming that the chief designer who gives designs guidlines and reviews everything and runs listening tests must be the same.
But, if so, then how come he came out with a diamond series which has a beautiful name but it is apparently not even superior to its predecessor?
Me, as a designer, I would never do that and that is where I fall short understanding. In other words I do like the work of the designer of the B&W and must trust that the same person should be able to improve the product over the years...unless he becomes deaf or there are some other reasons behind I am not understanding.
that's an interesting thought. Would you mind elaborate it a little further? What particular model of of B&W do you refer to (they make quite a bit of models)? What speakers have you compared them to that you end up preferring and why? What system do you use to evaluate speakers?
I know a lot of people don't like B&Ws and I am always intrigued to know the reasons behind it.
I heard a pair of 802 diamonds with Classe gear at a local dealer and was anything but impressed. But a Focal McIntosh rig in the same room was phenomenal. I wouldn't say that I dislike all B&W speakers as I've heard some of their older models that were fun to listen to. But some of their newer models have left me scratching my head.
I just had a look at the schematics of the B&W Signature 800 and the 800 Diamond 2.
They are identical, except for the tweeter filters. Third order bass, 4 element mid. The Diamond gets a single 4.7uF first order. The signature gets a 3rd order 6uF/0.08mH/20uf with an 0.5R input resistor.
I would guess that any advantage from the better tweeter has been thrown away with the overly simplistic filter. Common enough practise. What can you say?
They are identical, except for the tweeter filters. Third order bass, 4 element mid. The Diamond gets a single 4.7uF first order. The signature gets a 3rd order 6uF/0.08mH/20uf with an 0.5R input resistor.
I would guess that any advantage from the better tweeter has been thrown away with the overly simplistic filter. Common enough practise. What can you say?
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That is what happens when you expect too much.
Add to it a mediocre recording and you have a
.
Even from a technical point of view I agree completely with this statement. The raw ingredients included within the 800 series are excellent, however B&Ws crossover execution leaves a tremendous amount to be desired.
Having seen independent measurements of the raw metal domed 800 series tweeter, I am assuming that the diamond dome is only going to improve upon what was already impressive. The FST is, like has been said before, one of the best midrange drivers in the world.
The bass drivers of the 800 series appear to lack the copper in gap and inductance linearisation of the best (highish and rising 3rd order products) but this is a calculated cost cutting exercise as the low xover point to the mid makes this less of an issue than it could otherwise be.
I've mentioned this before but B&W go for a classic in house sound and the high, simplistic xover between the mid and tweeter governs a lot of this. The loudspeakers are exceptionally clean distortion-wise, but in terms of linear distortion and in terms of maintaining a nice even power response they are quite flawed. I don't care how nice you can make the off axis look, when your on axis looks like this...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Trouble is a brewing.
From the point of view of consumer audio I'd first go for a pair of TADs, followed by something from YG or Revel. This isn't about price, as they are on the whole, more expensive than B&W, it's just that their speakers usually have excellent power responses due to their use of directivity control, either through concentric driver design or shallow wave guides.
I would love to take a pair of 800s and resign them though.