Thanks altie for your thoughtful response. I believe we reason similarly.
I understand the complexities inherent in a discussion like this and I too have considered the futility of such an discussion.
As you said, the diversity and intensity of symptoms are so sprawling that to address it scientifically may seem to many a fools errand.
However, to me it’s just this sort of problem that strikes me as the most meaningful to engage in a discussion about.
I guess you could say I have a humanist view.
All solutions start somewhere, and while some ideas may not have much practical utility.... well, brainstorming and missteps I’ve come to see as integral parts of the process.
We have an incredibly gifted population of people with a wealth of experience who have contributed to solving similarly stupefying problems in their respective fields.
Im unaware of a more fitting place to ask such a question.
I understand the complexities inherent in a discussion like this and I too have considered the futility of such an discussion.
As you said, the diversity and intensity of symptoms are so sprawling that to address it scientifically may seem to many a fools errand.
However, to me it’s just this sort of problem that strikes me as the most meaningful to engage in a discussion about.
I guess you could say I have a humanist view.
All solutions start somewhere, and while some ideas may not have much practical utility.... well, brainstorming and missteps I’ve come to see as integral parts of the process.
We have an incredibly gifted population of people with a wealth of experience who have contributed to solving similarly stupefying problems in their respective fields.
Im unaware of a more fitting place to ask such a question.
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I agree generalizing a population is not wise.
To use the bifocals example, I’m suggesting something much akin to getting fitted for glasses.
Or, think of it like setting up DSP for a room and loudspeaker combination.
Again, not completely aligned examples so please use just to form a conceptual understanding.
One idea I had was similar to a hearing aid with dsp and program settings- much like 90’s receivers had settings like “concert hall” , “jazz club” and so on. Except it would be more like “Outdoors” or “school” or “crowded environment” or “home”
The other idea was based more on using music as a means to help sufferers adapt better to their surroundings, perhaps via headphones as a sort of “exercise”
Either way, in my mind it would necessitate it being:
1. Individualized - The same device can be calibrated for each person based on testing
2. Tunable / Variable- can be adjusted based on setting / situation as well as perhaps reduced in a program to eventually remove the apparatus entirely based upon improvement.
I don’t see individualized care as an insurmountable task. I assumed it a requirement both for this purpose or any kind of complex treatment protocol for that matter.
We all have different rooms, and I presume that was not used as logic to not develop REW or the DCX2496 or explore possible room treatments.
The greater the variability, the more flexibility would be required in the device or software.
So while it would need to be addressed I don’t see it as preventative or insurmountable.
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Translated into English, does this simply mean that autistic children can't (hyper-)concentrate in a room full of screaming and yelling other children?
Short answer: no.
Many early studies believed there was a hearing deficiency. What’s interesting is that they now refer to it as inattentional deafness. In other words, they hear so much it all becomes unintelligible.
It doesn’t have to be a group of rowdy, loud children. That I imagine could distract just about anyone.
More recent studies have suggested people on the autistic spectrum can take in more sounds at any given moment compared with non-autistic people. This can lead to confusion and overload.
For example; someone read you an entire sheet of paper in 10 seconds. You wouldn’t be able to repeat back any of it. Not because you are deaf, but because you were overloaded.
However my understanding is also that there are those on the lower functioning end of the spectrum who have additional issues. As with all things, not black and white.
Autism research / awareness has been slow on the uptake with apparently a lot of false starts / misdirections.
One of the most recent studies, which addresses some problems with earlier research and has an abundance of useful information can be read here:
A sound advantage: Increased auditory capacity in autism - ScienceDirect
The entire article can be downloaded for free in PDF... not just the abstract.
Many early studies believed there was a hearing deficiency. What’s interesting is that they now refer to it as inattentional deafness. In other words, they hear so much it all becomes unintelligible.
It doesn’t have to be a group of rowdy, loud children. That I imagine could distract just about anyone.
More recent studies have suggested people on the autistic spectrum can take in more sounds at any given moment compared with non-autistic people. This can lead to confusion and overload.
For example; someone read you an entire sheet of paper in 10 seconds. You wouldn’t be able to repeat back any of it. Not because you are deaf, but because you were overloaded.
However my understanding is also that there are those on the lower functioning end of the spectrum who have additional issues. As with all things, not black and white.
Autism research / awareness has been slow on the uptake with apparently a lot of false starts / misdirections.
One of the most recent studies, which addresses some problems with earlier research and has an abundance of useful information can be read here:
A sound advantage: Increased auditory capacity in autism - ScienceDirect
The entire article can be downloaded for free in PDF... not just the abstract.
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Whether it's a disability or a talent or a bit of both really depends on what symptoms you have, how strong they are and on the social context.
As an example, take Alan Turing, who invented the concept of the stored program computer, who was the number 1 cryptanalysist in Bletchley Park in World War II, who was an artificial intelligence pioneer, who solved a very old paradox in biology and who was a good amateur marathon runner. He quite clearly had Asperger's, as had many of his colleague cryptanalysists at Bletchley Park. It wasn't regarded as a mental illness back then, unlike his homosexuality.
Right, and while I'm not aware of any research on this specifically, it seems plausible to me that that kind of hyper-sensitivity, -awareness or -focus with respect to hearing would mirror other differences between neurotypical and autistic brains at the mechanistic level. There are theories that autism could occur due to greater excitatory vs. inhibitory function, as well as reduced synaptic pruning (past some certain developmental milestone, autistic brains are more highly connected than neurotypical counterparts). It seems plausible to me that those kinds of differences could manifest in a person's awareness as a different overall feel to their sensory experience including reactions to sounds.
When overloaded, I just get unreasonably angry and start yelling at people. It doesn't happen very often, thank goodness.
This reference in the opening post
Autistic people can hear more than most – which can be a strength and a challenge
might explain why I like to turn on background music, either a radio station or one of a very small set of CDs. When I really have to concentrate it's always the CD Too long in slavery by Culture.
This reference in the opening post
Autistic people can hear more than most – which can be a strength and a challenge
might explain why I like to turn on background music, either a radio station or one of a very small set of CDs. When I really have to concentrate it's always the CD Too long in slavery by Culture.
It could mean not only they can not concentrate but the sensory overload can be terrifying. Imagine a young child undiagnosed at a normal school suddenly confronted with this new environment.
Teacher not aware child is trying to cope with anxiety overload leading to behavioural problem in class, child removed to hallway or has to sit somewhere on their own which is normally *quiet* calm
Child returns to class pattern repeats itself....
Throw into the mix that many autistic children also suffer from developmental delay and their mental function can often be at levels several years or more below their actual age and peer group.
I don't understand, I don't want to speak for Earl, but it seems to me he was merely echoing your use of the word preferences in your first post?
Very perceptive, Jamie. We had this exact situation happen, except the teacher wasn't astute enough to recognize it. He spent the first two weeks of pre-kindergarten either sitting underneath his table or at the principles office.
Our solution was to remove him from school. The next year, we tried again at a private school with small classes and a wonderfully patient teacher and the results were great.
Space- This description makes perfect sense. In a wearable device, would you propose having either some elevator music or the patient's favorite song slowly come on when a certain threshold of noise (crowds, etc) is exceeded?
From the link above:
"Autistic individuals often show hypersensitivity to certain sounds, leading to great distress in noisy environments"
Interesting study.
I would assume you propose to attenuate or filter these sounds. If they could be identified and characterized well enough for a DSP to recognize at their onset?
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If that was your goal then it is honorable and I respect it, but at no time did I understand that is what this thread was about. I thought that you were suggesting that the perceptions of autistic people might have some reverence to others and I just don't see that.
In this regard I have no data, no expertise and no funds to do any work along those lines, so I do not see how I can be of any help.
Scottjoplin - yea, I didn't understand the comment either.
We have employed a (passive) sound blocking ear protection scheme at one point, for our non-verbal daughter, there’s merit to the sensory overload topic. Just not sure how a more advanced implementation would help anyone, that’s anyone’s guess.
Maybe a tuned version of some noise canceling headphones?
Maybe a tuned version of some noise canceling headphones?
Gedlee,
Like all things there’s a bell shape curve. Was I suggesting there might be implications for the non-autistic population? Certainly. How relevant they are is anyone’s guess.
I’m sorry to take you away from other more important matters. Do as you wish.
TSmith,
Well, at the moment it’s just speculation, but my working theory is:
1. Like any other sensory disability there must be a measurement protocol. Whether it’s been developed or how mature it is I don’t know.
2. Given a sophisticated enough measurement protocol, there must be measurable “sound signatures” or distortions that are more debilitating than others. Focusing on the maximally debilitating issues to create a general model or approach would make sense.
3. With this data, two possible options I’ve considered:
A. A filtering mechanism for “out in the world”.
I am against treating symptoms only if avoidable so there could also be a mechanism for gradually adjusting toward no or less filtering if it would prove effective. How long the weaning might take is another unknown.
B. Some kind of biofeedback / at home device for “auditory training” to lessen debilitating responses when in the real world. Music is an excellent tool because it’s less likely to be viewed as a “chore” and can provide enjoyment for the listener.
Which would be a superior approach is unknown.
Whether both should be used in unison is also unknown.
Data is obviously in short supply.
However I think DSP is the key here and seems to have been ignored as a potential solution.
What makes me look to DSP is that it’s:
1. extremely powerful
2. relatively new
3. Relatively cheap
4. Small/ portable
5. Flexible
Like all things there’s a bell shape curve. Was I suggesting there might be implications for the non-autistic population? Certainly. How relevant they are is anyone’s guess.
I’m sorry to take you away from other more important matters. Do as you wish.
TSmith,
Well, at the moment it’s just speculation, but my working theory is:
1. Like any other sensory disability there must be a measurement protocol. Whether it’s been developed or how mature it is I don’t know.
2. Given a sophisticated enough measurement protocol, there must be measurable “sound signatures” or distortions that are more debilitating than others. Focusing on the maximally debilitating issues to create a general model or approach would make sense.
3. With this data, two possible options I’ve considered:
A. A filtering mechanism for “out in the world”.
I am against treating symptoms only if avoidable so there could also be a mechanism for gradually adjusting toward no or less filtering if it would prove effective. How long the weaning might take is another unknown.
B. Some kind of biofeedback / at home device for “auditory training” to lessen debilitating responses when in the real world. Music is an excellent tool because it’s less likely to be viewed as a “chore” and can provide enjoyment for the listener.
Which would be a superior approach is unknown.
Whether both should be used in unison is also unknown.
Data is obviously in short supply.
However I think DSP is the key here and seems to have been ignored as a potential solution.
What makes me look to DSP is that it’s:
1. extremely powerful
2. relatively new
3. Relatively cheap
4. Small/ portable
5. Flexible
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How to win friends and influence people? What you are attempting is interesting and could work for some people, I wish you all the best. A word of warning though, try not to develop a holier than thou attitude, I've seen it happen too many times when someone is on a worthwhile mission, it's counterproductive and is a real turn off to people who may otherwise be prepared to help.
There is a great deal of that on this forum (and others) in the guise of absolutism. "My approach is pure, therefore yours is invalid." It's not uncommon on any side of the fence.
Let's set the record straight here - I never said that.
You asked me to come here to, I assume, offer my opinion, which I did. You and the other usual suspects proceeded to attack me as elitist. I then politely said that I had nothing further to offer.
If you want me to come here just so that you (and the other typical participants) can criticize me, then I think that I'll pass.
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