Can somebody explain the audibility of dissipation factor and dielectric absorption in film capacitors? The way I see it, it must be mostly a linear phenomenon, since it can be modelled by extra RC networks in parallel with the ideal capacitor.
That says to me that the effect of it must just be a tiny change in the frequency response. A filter made with the capacitor would roll off at a rate very slightly different from 6dB/octave. I don't see any explanation for the subjectivist claims that it muddles the sound by storing energy and releasing it later.
My other big problem with capacitor sound is that a capacitor can only distort whatever signal voltage appears across it, and in a well-chosen coupling capacitor this voltage is pretty small.
Ceramic and electrolytic capacitors can be highly nonlinear, but that isn't what I'm talking about.
That says to me that the effect of it must just be a tiny change in the frequency response. A filter made with the capacitor would roll off at a rate very slightly different from 6dB/octave. I don't see any explanation for the subjectivist claims that it muddles the sound by storing energy and releasing it later.
My other big problem with capacitor sound is that a capacitor can only distort whatever signal voltage appears across it, and in a well-chosen coupling capacitor this voltage is pretty small.
Ceramic and electrolytic capacitors can be highly nonlinear, but that isn't what I'm talking about.
AVX, KEMET, Panasonic etc. etc. have numerous white papers, app notes etc. that will give you all the information you need.
There are also Automotive grade caps, both these and military grade tend to be a higher temperature range.
Funny working on high MHz ADC and DAC designs for something at the moment and we are using caps from known manufacturers, no boutiques stuff,
MLCCs for decoupling purposes because they are the best for this and film for signal path.....
Hers one link I forgot about that's not bad...
Capacitors: Types, Specs, notes on Use "Capacitors: A Field Guide to Types and Habitats" - by Harry R. Bissell Jr.
Capacitors: Types, Specs, notes on Use "Capacitors: A Field Guide to Types and Habitats" - by Harry R. Bissell Jr.
Mica Capacitor » Capacitor Guide
At the bottom here they mention that class 1 ceramics can be used to replace mica in a lot of situation at a much reduced price. I think for high power RF they are still a good choice.
At the bottom here they mention that class 1 ceramics can be used to replace mica in a lot of situation at a much reduced price. I think for high power RF they are still a good choice.
What I believe capman57 just did was to more than muddy the waters here. All of a sudden it is one type of capacitor vs another and willy nilly mixing of materials. What I am saying is that if you take two or more capacitors of the same type of film, same type of construction, and same type of lead out wire and same voltage rating will there really be any difference between them? Perhaps very small measurable difference but not enough to make the subjectivist claims that we often see here.
On the point of hand making capacitors, what does that supposedly mean? That they are being individually wound by hand and that no two have the same exact tension while winding? That would just make a much greater variation in finished properties. From what I understand the current automated winding machines are highly accurate for both the tensioning of the film and also the attachment of the lead out wire. If you want to compare a radial to an axial capacitor that would be a true comparison but that isn't what we seem to see when people are rolling capacitors. They are supposedly comparing the same construction types and equal value capacitors to each other, this is where the problems begin. If you are only comparing what is stated on the wrapper of the capacitor you don't really know that the two or more devices you are comparing are the same values, it is only a sighted comparison and not a measured electrical comparison of the capacitors themselves. Therefor the test are null tests, they are inconclusive and self deceptive at least.
On the point of hand making capacitors, what does that supposedly mean? That they are being individually wound by hand and that no two have the same exact tension while winding? That would just make a much greater variation in finished properties. From what I understand the current automated winding machines are highly accurate for both the tensioning of the film and also the attachment of the lead out wire. If you want to compare a radial to an axial capacitor that would be a true comparison but that isn't what we seem to see when people are rolling capacitors. They are supposedly comparing the same construction types and equal value capacitors to each other, this is where the problems begin. If you are only comparing what is stated on the wrapper of the capacitor you don't really know that the two or more devices you are comparing are the same values, it is only a sighted comparison and not a measured electrical comparison of the capacitors themselves. Therefor the test are null tests, they are inconclusive and self deceptive at least.
Just to assume that capacitors are "the same" if the values are equal and the dielectric is the same is not correct. My guess is Kindhornman doesn't understand material science.
Let's take polypropylene for an example - capacitor grade polypropylene is manufactured by possibly 6 different companies. To understand how the material is manufactured, it starts life as pellets, then is melted down in a slot die to somewhere around 6mm thick by 300 or 400mm wide. It is then slowly extruded by pulling the film bi-axially. Each company has their own chemistry for the pellets, sip agents for the extruder, etc. So, that said, no all polypropylene is created equal. They have the same general characteristics, but can vary electrically.
Another notable attribute I have yet to see on this forum (I'm pretty new) is the mention of other electrical characteristics. So far I've seen:
Capacitance
Dissipation Factor
Dielectric absoprtion
Insulation Resistance
What about:
Equivalent series resistance
Equivalent series inductance
Then we have a really trick one - EMF (electro-mechanical forces)
Now back to the post - I've worked with 250K USD Swiss manufactured capacitor winding machines. I've spent weeks in an Italian capacitor winding machine manufacturers facility - so I pretty familiar with winding equipment. Capacitors by nature are not precision devices. Its difficult to take a materials with thickness and width tolerances around +-2% and turn them into something better. Most winding machines are designed for thru-put. In order to get the thru-put, you need high speed winding. In order to get high speed winding, you need tensioning that can handle the high rate ramp up and ramp down of the high speed winding. Alignment is also critical.
By hand made, I'm not talking about hand winders, I'm talking about capacitors that are manufactured using semi-automated processes, and not some 5 cents part being spit out with an acceptable lot yield of 75% - which most commercial parts are some derivative of.
Now lets talk about Metalized polypropylene capacitors - just because the size is similar, value and voltage is the same, doesn't mean they are the same. The actual electrode comes into play - willy nilly I think the saying was. Perhaps, but if its not correct, it will fail - might be okay in your audio equipment, but not acceptable in the Boeing Dreamliner. The electrode has a major impact on ESR, ESL, voltage withstand (thats right), and current. Changing the diameter to length ration also effects ESR & ESL.
We will stop there for now so no one gets too over loaded
Let's take polypropylene for an example - capacitor grade polypropylene is manufactured by possibly 6 different companies. To understand how the material is manufactured, it starts life as pellets, then is melted down in a slot die to somewhere around 6mm thick by 300 or 400mm wide. It is then slowly extruded by pulling the film bi-axially. Each company has their own chemistry for the pellets, sip agents for the extruder, etc. So, that said, no all polypropylene is created equal. They have the same general characteristics, but can vary electrically.
Another notable attribute I have yet to see on this forum (I'm pretty new) is the mention of other electrical characteristics. So far I've seen:
Capacitance
Dissipation Factor
Dielectric absoprtion
Insulation Resistance
What about:
Equivalent series resistance
Equivalent series inductance
Then we have a really trick one - EMF (electro-mechanical forces)
Now back to the post - I've worked with 250K USD Swiss manufactured capacitor winding machines. I've spent weeks in an Italian capacitor winding machine manufacturers facility - so I pretty familiar with winding equipment. Capacitors by nature are not precision devices. Its difficult to take a materials with thickness and width tolerances around +-2% and turn them into something better. Most winding machines are designed for thru-put. In order to get the thru-put, you need high speed winding. In order to get high speed winding, you need tensioning that can handle the high rate ramp up and ramp down of the high speed winding. Alignment is also critical.
By hand made, I'm not talking about hand winders, I'm talking about capacitors that are manufactured using semi-automated processes, and not some 5 cents part being spit out with an acceptable lot yield of 75% - which most commercial parts are some derivative of.
Now lets talk about Metalized polypropylene capacitors - just because the size is similar, value and voltage is the same, doesn't mean they are the same. The actual electrode comes into play - willy nilly I think the saying was. Perhaps, but if its not correct, it will fail - might be okay in your audio equipment, but not acceptable in the Boeing Dreamliner. The electrode has a major impact on ESR, ESL, voltage withstand (thats right), and current. Changing the diameter to length ration also effects ESR & ESL.
We will stop there for now so no one gets too over loaded
Since you've only quoted him selectively, it's no surprise that you're attributing things to him he didn't say. His understanding of material science relevant to capacitors is fine.
I am amused that we've gone from "hand-made" to "semi-automatic processes." I'd love to see some backup to the claim that major capacitor manufacturers only get 75% yield; this would be a rich opportunity for me to make some significant consulting bucks.
Yes, ESR and ESL, as well as "singing" are routinely mentioned in this forum.
I can't understand why this has become a "put down Capman Thread".
Here we have a new Member, who IS a Manufacturer, willing to give an insight into capacitor characteristics and which ones may explain some of the "sound" consequences that are reported.
Let Capman speak.
Ask questions.
Offer alternative evidence if you have any.
But most of all, stop the put downs. That is the FORUM RULE !!
Capman,
esl and esr are frequently mentioned and discussed on this Forum.
Here we have a new Member, who IS a Manufacturer, willing to give an insight into capacitor characteristics and which ones may explain some of the "sound" consequences that are reported.
Let Capman speak.
Ask questions.
Offer alternative evidence if you have any.
But most of all, stop the put downs. That is the FORUM RULE !!
Capman,
esl and esr are frequently mentioned and discussed on this Forum.
But he hasn't given us any insight. He has just claimed that he has insight, told us that we do not, and presented the short version of his CV. I suspect that if we start asking probing questions he will claim commercial confidentiality.
Some real information would be helpful. Even then, for most applications of most caps in most audio circuits the details don't actually matter; circuit theory insists on that.
Some real information would be helpful. Even then, for most applications of most caps in most audio circuits the details don't actually matter; circuit theory insists on that.
I have reviewed those three posts and they say very little.
In post 69 he tells us that the foil and dielectric affect ESR, insulation resistance, DA and DF. Anyone who knows anything about capacitors would already know that.
In post 73 he says that audiophile caps from his company have unspecified 'specific techniques' in manufacture. OK, one piece of insight: not all audiophile caps are pure snake oil, some really are built differently.
In post 89 he tells us that capacitor polypropylene (for example) is not a pure generic product but varies slightly according to supplier and processing. I thought that was true of most (all?) plastics. Again he tells us that matters of foil and dielectric affect the capacitor characteristics. Unsurprising.
I am still waiting for some insight into how some caps have features (apart from the standard electrical properties) which mean they sound better in audio circuits. Now it may be that he can't tell us because that would involve giving away trade secrets, but that means we are left with no 'insight' but merely having to take on trust that an audiophile cap maker really does make better sounding caps. (In circuits where cap quality should make no difference?)
In post 69 he tells us that the foil and dielectric affect ESR, insulation resistance, DA and DF. Anyone who knows anything about capacitors would already know that.
In post 73 he says that audiophile caps from his company have unspecified 'specific techniques' in manufacture. OK, one piece of insight: not all audiophile caps are pure snake oil, some really are built differently.
In post 89 he tells us that capacitor polypropylene (for example) is not a pure generic product but varies slightly according to supplier and processing. I thought that was true of most (all?) plastics. Again he tells us that matters of foil and dielectric affect the capacitor characteristics. Unsurprising.
I am still waiting for some insight into how some caps have features (apart from the standard electrical properties) which mean they sound better in audio circuits. Now it may be that he can't tell us because that would involve giving away trade secrets, but that means we are left with no 'insight' but merely having to take on trust that an audiophile cap maker really does make better sounding caps. (In circuits where cap quality should make no difference?)
I think that's a little better than 1-sigma. You're not gonna sell anything to GE, Phillips, UTX or Cisco with that high a reject rate because your competitor is 6-sigma. In manufacturing, the math just doesn't work.
In high end consumer products almost the opposite is true -- it's eye-candy for men (mostly.) We've dealt with several consumer product companies with well-burnished reputations -- and they shockingly have high rejection rates on their finish lines! Should start another thread on the metaphysical aspects of sales to men compared to women.
The best I could do with caps is to try them out. I built a rig to switch between two or more caps, and try to remember if it is making a difference at all. I make sure that my test circuit has no negative feedback. I use simple grounded cathode line stage for that purpose. If I see an improvement then I would consider to use it. But I know this might not be a sure way for all circuits. You will need to do it on all the different circuits you intend to build. 
Still the definitive work on capacitor sound IMO. The worst film capacitor Bateman could find, under the worst conditions, had 0.002% THD.
Capacitor Sound
Capacitor Sound
This is why most amplifiers use negative feedback.
It counteracts any distortion put in by poor or cheap components.
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