"Audio" grade capacitors

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It is not an art, it is engineering, the art is in making the music. Audio reproduction is about engineering a system that either is neutral ie adds nothing to the replay, or more often flawed to a greater or lesser extent adding some form of coloration to sound.
And if people are honest, most audiophile parts cater to the esoteric, hand rolled capacitors etc, quite often devoid of any real engineering basis and sold with the mystique that surrounds these parts.
To claim it is art is further myth and mystique...
As to proving audiophiles idiots, that reputation is already prevalent to some extent in the world at large and not helped by some of the far out beliefs and claims. Which is a shame because it does not help the cause of advancing the quality of musical reproduction.
 
If it were "Art", you should be able to make capacitors out of Carrara marble, tube plates out of gold/silver/brass, speaker cones and suspensions out of Sandal or Cedar wood, also able to make tube cathodes heated by white whale oil candles and tube bases and sockets out of hand carved Ivory ..... and Sound should be "Heavenly" .... but no, even these Scam Artists still must make tube filaments out of boring tungsten, plates out of boring steel, envelopes out of boring glass (with the exception of some Czech tubes clad in beautiful Bohemian lead glass), having a plate passing 50mA when having 300V across it dissipating boring 15W and so on.

Why not be creative or artistic and make such plate voltage and current dissipate ethereal 1W or massive 100W?

Why does 300V*50mA HAVE to be 15W?

A group of Audio Artists should get together and write a Manifesto denouncing Medieval Physics and announcing a new Era of Human Freedom, specially free from Physics Laws.

Until that Revolution succeeds, I'm afraid that the tyrant Physics and its heir: Engineering, will continue ruling the World.
 
Sorry, gentlemen, I will have to dissent a bit. Yes, getting an electrical signal from A to B, making in larger or smaller, altering its frequency and phase content, storing and retrieving it- this is indeed science, or more properly, engineering, since the scientific principles were worked out decades ago.

But when it comes to the transduction and room acoustics part, art is a key part. Not in a snake oil sense- ANY audible change is measurable- but in the aspect of choosing what the target is and the way to achieve it. From there, engineering takes over, but engineering (and science to this point) can't say unambiguously that (for example) crossed figure 8 mikes are "better" than ORTF, or that polar pattern A is "better" than polar pattern B when it comes to creating an illusion. That's art. Engineering can only determine the best and most effective way of hitting that target. This is why the best speaker designers (and I would name people like Peter Walker, Ken Kantor, Roy Allison..) are equally adept at engineering and art.
 
But, AFAIK, every "audiophile" in this thread seems not to be taking care of loudspeaker and sound-environment interaction at all (they really are the biggest part of the sound "game")... but they are talking about their golden ears and their ability to select caps just by listening to them :confused: :confused:
 
analog_sa said:
It's much closer to an art form than to engineering.
It depends what you mean by 'it'. Designing music reproduction electronics is almost entirely a matter of engineering. Designing boutique components may be mainly or entirely art, especially the salesman's art.

The audiophile parts market is by now quite mature and hoping that an ineffective product will sell just because of marketing and positive magazine reviews is naive. If you think otherwise start your own boutique parts manufacture, become rich and as a bonus enjoy the satisfaction of proving audiophiles as idiots en masse.
On the contrary, it is naive to think that product quality is essential to successful selling. Many of us are too honest (and/or know too much science) to go into that business, and have more satisfying things to do with our time.
 
I'd say "predictable," but not necessarily explainable. If A and B sound different, measurements will show the difference. They will NOT show what the listener might prefer.

There is also the weighting of the data found in measurement. Or, the understanding of the meaning of the data, it's relevance and connection to what is heard.

How we hear, how that translates to measurements. these aspects are not entirely fleshed out.

That we are each given different bits of cranial wiring when it comes to hearing and eyesight. That our outer ears are all individual, moreso than fingerprints, is what the emergent data on ear pinna (outer ear) shaping says.

This means that with our individual unique cranial wiring of our hearing mechanism, we each build (learn) a total hearing function out of that, with our individual ear shape.

Which might mean that hearing is notably more unique than that of seeing.

Add in that it is not just wiring but dedication to the act and act of learning to use that, over time, making and breaking neural connections in the noggin, as we grow and learn.

Then we come to the idealization part. The mental projections of the individual of what the reality might be, what it is felt and understood to be. Even though it is, as humans do, just a projection.

To whit..every grouping of humans of a similar mind and tasking capacity or similar interests and actions... means that a bell curve exists. A bell curve of who they are and where they stand in that system. What we invariably find, if we actually take a look, is that it is the 'mean', the 'average' that rules the roost, not the pinnacle or the peak. That the peak does not rule even within the concept of projected idealization. Some form of mediocrity rules the situation, even within the idea of the projections of the mean or average in the bell curve. In science, physics, engineering, no matter the grouping, mediocrity rules the roost or rules the system, overall. The idealizations of the centrist mass within the group cannot be the actual pinnacle of the area of endeavor, otherwise it WOULD be a proper peak of and in the center ---and it never is. It's a bell curve, and thus the peak is always out of the center or 'ruling' overall mass (or masses of people in the given area). It remains so as we are in this as an idea in learning and changing, growing.... thus the projection of moving onward and upward is indicative of the direction of the peak, thus.... the center mass cannot ever be the peak. Simple basic logic in this human oriented and connected system, and it is undeniable. Realization of this is key.


In the world of audio, with it's complex blending of areas of physics, science, and engineering, this can and does step things down one level (one level/step further down from individual bell curve centers for each area), due to this added complexity of true expertise in multiple fields of endeavor being required to complete the task of a more perfected piece of audio gear.

In this way, mediocrity of some sort tends to be saluted and celebrated by the center mass of audiophiles and even audiophile builders, as being the peak of audio quality and design. The center mass of the bell curve of audio (overall) will ALWAYS be chasing a peak that it cannot see, hear or understands even exists.

When you add in the money factor and the fact of us learning to hear differently and in different ways/paths (of learning) you get to the inevitable point of having mediocre brands and mediocre levels of skill being celebrated as being the pinnacle of audio gear and sound quality.

In the world of audio, that is the elephant in the room which the more aware in the system have to sit there and deal with. The unspoken truth that is known by many in the system. The thing that is not to be spoken of. That neophytes and people with money, who are both not at the peak of hearing/listening skills, they rule the world of audio and create the celebration and raising of brand and qualities that are not the best, but the best to those who don't know any better (and they may never learn the difference). The center of the bell curve, largely speaking, cannot move - only the individual can.

As in all systems with large samples of people in them, there will always be this bell curve of a centrist nature, where some form of mediocrity rules the day and rules the system, at least in the given public face of the given systems, if not in the reality of the given system.

Thus, the true peak of the given system will always be derided as being crackpots to the centrist peak of the bell curve sample set, as it can be no other way. Being that the centrists are generally the most vocal and unaware (the undeniable/unstoppable/unchangeable heart of the matter), this aspect can be and is compounded in the world of audio.
 
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I tend to use Vishays BC in the PSU, because they are very good, fresh new e supposedly better than old originals.

I used Panas FC and I was happy the the results.

Now I use pretty normal Nippon/United Chemicons with same size dimentions as for old ones (hence higher voltage handlings).

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


The reason? Well, they are cheaper, fresh new, stronger (higher temperature and voltage handlings) and most of all, they are just replacing the same "normal" capacitors that were inside all the vintage gear as all manufacturers in late 70s (Kenwood, Sansui, Pioneer, Yamaha, etc) used in their production as you can see the left one above. :)

If you want to put very nice Nichicons and Elnas, that's very good, too! :)
 
The article on the link does not tell anything about the quality of those capacitors. These are biased opinions from one single person, who claims to hear the difference. If you ever attended a local hifi event and listened to what garbage and false preconceptions people can talk about you already understand this artice carries no information at all. Most of the so called audiophiles are no trained professionals by any means, they have no idea even about basic electronics, and stick to tales, rumors and all the misused or untrue information circling around amongst them. Would you trust an engineer who builds an airplane based on feelings, mystical, non measurable powers, and information he heard at an airplane show from others who are just like him?

The other links at least carry value of measurements.
 
For those who say that caps does not make much of a difference in the sound, analogous to those who argue that different wires do not make a difference in sound,

I have went down this route before and can tell you that yes, they do make a difference!!! Changing caps in your speakers, or changing caps in the signal path of your amp will make a difference in sound. Even replacing the electrolytic caps with newer ones will make a difference.

Just speaking from experience.
 
caps can be used for filtering the audio signal or for coupling the audio signal.

These two modes of operation are completely different.

Any conclusion on sound quality for one mode CANNOT be assumed for the other mode, due to the physics of what is passing through the capacitor.
 
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