If you had a vacuum, (or inert gas), would you need mercury wetting? Surely the only degredation would be due to physical wear?
I'm thinking of taking care of the mechanical interface, especially over time and usage. Filling in the gaps, as it were.
Hi Upupa,
I somehow doubt you will consider this to be sufficiently 'scientific' to satisfy you, but to explain my own comments from before, I will tell you how I first noticed this different effect with alternative contacts in switches.
At one time I had insufficient analogue inputs for a pre-amp, which I was very familiar with listening to, as I had done so over a substantial period.
I purchased the best quality switch I could readily find (from Farnell), and hard-wired this to the pre-amp's input, directly at the circuit board, after removing the connections to the existing RCA input sockets.
Here I used the same connecting wire I use for my self-made interconnects, and for the input to this new switch, I hard wired (using also the same silver wire) short fly-leads to several pairs of similar RCA sockets as was used on the pre-amp before.
So, apart from a few extra inches of the same wire as was already in use from my sources, and a couple of solder joints, the only material addition to the input path, was the switch and its contacts. I used an Elma on this first occasion, and was very disappointed to hear a noticeable deterioration in the overall sound quality, which I could not ignore.
My system is very revealing, and for example when listening to live performances via radio, one can fequently hear Presenter's stomachs rumbling, instructions given to the Presenter through their headphones from the show's Producers, Presenters wetting their lips prior to speaking, and so on. On several supposedly *unscripted* live shows, I have even heard some papers being continually shuffled around (!) and annoying traffic noises, presumably from outside the recording venue, are often to be heard.
Whether all of these are desirable is a moot point, but to me they simply take me closer to 'being there', and it had taken many years of 'development' work on my system to reach that stage of transparency where (virtually) everything is revealed, good or bad, intended or not.
Probably like yourself, I have certain 'favourite' recordings which I play over and over again (not only to annoy my wife!) and as the years progressed, I heard more and more details from these same recordings which had earlier been hidden in the background. This is another yardstick of my 'sonic' progress, including hearing conductors obviously dropping batons, chairs squeaking, people's voices in the background, coughing, and many other unwanted affects. I listen a lot to close-miked female singers and it usually possible to 'hear' them moving their heads about when emphasising certain notes, their clothes rustling, and many other personal sounds, which rarely, if ever, do I hear elsewhere, in other systems.
Regrettably, the Elma switch simply 'masked' quite a noticeable amount of this very fine detail, and the result was a slight veiling of everything I then heard, and I was not satified with this backward step. My system sounded more like it had done several years earlier, and this was disappointing.
Having used some Shallcos in the switched attenuators I earlier made for this pre-amp, I had a bespoke switch made up by the UK Blore Edwards company, and this was similar in construction to the Shallco, with all silver contacts, silver wipers, and built to military spec. When this was substituted for the Elma, things improved no end, and most (if not all) of the otherwise missing fine detail was restored.
This time, there was no other change at all except for unsoldering one switch, and resoldering the substitute unit in its place.
Being more satisfied with this arrangement which gave me the additional flexibility for extra inputs, I was still interested to hear what the original set-up sounded like compared with the Blore Edwards, in a direct comparison. I tried this out, and found that there was, unfortunately, a small downside to using this silver switch over no switch at all, so still not being completely satisfied, I ordered a Shallco to replace it.
On installing the Shallco, this was not noticeably better or much different from the Blore Edwards, rather disappointingly, but I still have the Shallco in use for the added convenience.
This is not to say that all silver switches must be better, as I have not tried all of them, but because of their use of expensive materials, I guess they will be mainly better made than other units. There is another factor in the make-up of these switches, and you don't find many dissimilar metal 'junctions' in their construction, as is often the case with other switches which frequently use many riveted or welded contacts throughout the 'signal path', and it is my opinion that this type of construction doesn't assist with good sonics.
With both the silver switches I used, the tags on which the input/output wires are directly soldered, are actually the other end of a solid single piece of coin silver which forms the contact, itself.
Regards,
I somehow doubt you will consider this to be sufficiently 'scientific' to satisfy you, but to explain my own comments from before, I will tell you how I first noticed this different effect with alternative contacts in switches.
At one time I had insufficient analogue inputs for a pre-amp, which I was very familiar with listening to, as I had done so over a substantial period.
I purchased the best quality switch I could readily find (from Farnell), and hard-wired this to the pre-amp's input, directly at the circuit board, after removing the connections to the existing RCA input sockets.
Here I used the same connecting wire I use for my self-made interconnects, and for the input to this new switch, I hard wired (using also the same silver wire) short fly-leads to several pairs of similar RCA sockets as was used on the pre-amp before.
So, apart from a few extra inches of the same wire as was already in use from my sources, and a couple of solder joints, the only material addition to the input path, was the switch and its contacts. I used an Elma on this first occasion, and was very disappointed to hear a noticeable deterioration in the overall sound quality, which I could not ignore.
My system is very revealing, and for example when listening to live performances via radio, one can fequently hear Presenter's stomachs rumbling, instructions given to the Presenter through their headphones from the show's Producers, Presenters wetting their lips prior to speaking, and so on. On several supposedly *unscripted* live shows, I have even heard some papers being continually shuffled around (!) and annoying traffic noises, presumably from outside the recording venue, are often to be heard.
Whether all of these are desirable is a moot point, but to me they simply take me closer to 'being there', and it had taken many years of 'development' work on my system to reach that stage of transparency where (virtually) everything is revealed, good or bad, intended or not.
Probably like yourself, I have certain 'favourite' recordings which I play over and over again (not only to annoy my wife!) and as the years progressed, I heard more and more details from these same recordings which had earlier been hidden in the background. This is another yardstick of my 'sonic' progress, including hearing conductors obviously dropping batons, chairs squeaking, people's voices in the background, coughing, and many other unwanted affects. I listen a lot to close-miked female singers and it usually possible to 'hear' them moving their heads about when emphasising certain notes, their clothes rustling, and many other personal sounds, which rarely, if ever, do I hear elsewhere, in other systems.
Regrettably, the Elma switch simply 'masked' quite a noticeable amount of this very fine detail, and the result was a slight veiling of everything I then heard, and I was not satified with this backward step. My system sounded more like it had done several years earlier, and this was disappointing.
Having used some Shallcos in the switched attenuators I earlier made for this pre-amp, I had a bespoke switch made up by the UK Blore Edwards company, and this was similar in construction to the Shallco, with all silver contacts, silver wipers, and built to military spec. When this was substituted for the Elma, things improved no end, and most (if not all) of the otherwise missing fine detail was restored.
This time, there was no other change at all except for unsoldering one switch, and resoldering the substitute unit in its place.
Being more satisfied with this arrangement which gave me the additional flexibility for extra inputs, I was still interested to hear what the original set-up sounded like compared with the Blore Edwards, in a direct comparison. I tried this out, and found that there was, unfortunately, a small downside to using this silver switch over no switch at all, so still not being completely satisfied, I ordered a Shallco to replace it.
On installing the Shallco, this was not noticeably better or much different from the Blore Edwards, rather disappointingly, but I still have the Shallco in use for the added convenience.
This is not to say that all silver switches must be better, as I have not tried all of them, but because of their use of expensive materials, I guess they will be mainly better made than other units. There is another factor in the make-up of these switches, and you don't find many dissimilar metal 'junctions' in their construction, as is often the case with other switches which frequently use many riveted or welded contacts throughout the 'signal path', and it is my opinion that this type of construction doesn't assist with good sonics.
With both the silver switches I used, the tags on which the input/output wires are directly soldered, are actually the other end of a solid single piece of coin silver which forms the contact, itself.
Regards,
After many tests, which we have made in our hifi community, we had find, that the best regulation is ladder attenuator ( nominal 50 Ohm or less ), connected at the output of preamp ( if is this one designed like " small " PA, what isn't problem at this time ), switched by some good relays. This method of regulation have every advantages and any pot or switching regulator at " classical " preamp configuration ( regulation before output amp ) isn't similarly good...
AndrewT said:
Strange, looks like a power amplifier to me.
The black things are very low noise pre tubes, very expensive but high longevity.
Upupa Epops said:
Hi,
You may well be right here, Upupa, but you have introduced another change in suggesting this particular arrangement.
How 'scientific' were your "many tests", by the way?😉
Regards,
The same like otherwhere, in our community are many guys, which like to listen good music, but they are total " not technician types ". They aren't preliminary impressed by some concrete technical solution, they only listen... Second unaffected group of listener are ( in mostly of cases ) our wifes, although often is little bit problem push them to listening and to get from them correct definiton of listening impression 😉 .... Ladder attenuator win everywhere... 😉
Upupa Epops said:
Hi Upupa,
These were not attenuators, which I described here.
These were simple 2 pole rotary switches which switched both hot and ground connections 3 ways, to allow 3 different inputs to this pre-amp. When I carried out the listening trials, I only had one (the same) input connected, so there was no possibility of any unwanted inductive/capacitive coupling from other sources to affect the matter.
The initial Elma trial, did add two soldered contacts and a short additional piece of the same wire, to the original stock arrangement, as I said.
However, when merely substituting (two different) silver switches for the original Elma, the only difference then was the substitution of the alternative type of switch.
So I believe this was a fair comparison, here.
Regards,
Upupa Epops said:
Hi Upupa,
I just thought, maybe you were referring here to my earlier comments on substituting attenuators in a Spectral pre-amp.
If so, all 4 attenuators were nominally the same impedance.
I originally had a Noble, then an Alps, then a Penny & Giles, before the Shallco & Vishay bulk-foil arrangement. All were nominally 10k.
Regards,
The most fair comparison would be soldered connection instead of a switch. Silver, due to it's properties, may actually exaggerate certain frequencies, giving impression of more detail, which not neccessarily may be the most natural (neutral) presentation.
I had similar impression with Placette RVC. When inserted in a circuit it sounded actually better than two resistor devider soldered directly. It made impression of more air and detail, yet it can't be possibly better than just two Vishay resistors (without all those realys, wires and RCA connectors). The only explanation could be signal manipulation by "enhanced" coloration, which is not completely neutral, yet it sounds "better" just like exotic cables.
Just yesterday, I tried top of the line Kimber KS1130, but as much as I wanted them to sound better, the older KCAG seem to sound more natural, even though they are a bit rough (however, that rougghness gives them more intensity comparing to polished behaviour of 1130's).
Just yesterday, I tried top of the line Kimber KS1130, but as much as I wanted them to sound better, the older KCAG seem to sound more natural, even though they are a bit rough (however, that rougghness gives them more intensity comparing to polished behaviour of 1130's).
OK, second question : both was " one packet " ? And second " subquestion " : Which was output impedance of signal source and input impedance of next stage ?
Which properties, Peter ? Silver have best conductivity and by silver bullet you can kill the vampire ( if is painted by garlic )... I don't know any others in look of " sound "...
Peter Daniel said:
Hi Peter,
As we were talking about the sonic effects/differences between silver and gold-plated *contacts* on switches, I don't quite understand this comment of yours. The choice to solder wasn't available for the application I originally mentioned, where some kind of switch was necessary to enable more inputs to a pre-amp. However, to clarify another poster's comment that he assumed these switches would sound the same, I had found that the silver switches I used had less adverse effect on the sound than the gold-plated Elma switch, which I had started off with.
If making sonic comparisons between different components, I fully agree with soldering them in circuit, and avoiding all non-vital contacts like switches and connectors, wherever possible, is certainly my ideal.
How is your remote-based attenuator project coming along BTW?
It's easy to say, Peter... But you forget, that exist crosstalk and that MUST be higher in case of rotary switch, 'cos mechanical proportion of this device is bigger...
Bobken said:
I was merely suggesting that silver in the switches may have similar effect as silver in interconnects, and that is "enhancement" of the detail. How natural it is, can be only compared to soldering the attenuating resistors directly in the circuit, bypassing the switch completely. That would be in respect to gold plated switch, which would be also compared to directly soldered resistors. The test would be based on which switch sounds closer to directly soldered resistors, not which sounds better in direct comparison. I think that would be more fair.
As to my attenuator, I did my part, now it's up to the guy who does programming.
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