Attenuator issues

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#61
vuki said:


That's true!

I'm really not sure that anyone can hear the difference between goldplated and silver contacts when in perfect condition, but everyone can hear noise from oxidized contacts.
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Hi Vuki,

You can hear the difference, or at least I can in my system.

I have several Shallcos and the very similarly-constructed Blore Edwards switches, which all have coin silver contacts and wipers.

I also have (had!) an Elma switch, and this had gold-plated contacts. When compared, the two with silver contacts 'sounded' better (more revealing and smoother-sounding, so I guess more accurate) than the Elma.

Regards,
 
#62
Hi Bobken,

maybe you can, but I can't. Or, to tell you the truth - I never tried. But, for example - I can't hear the difference between some cheap RCA connectors and Eichman Bulletplugs. At least, I can't hear it when I can't see the cable 😉

BTW what do you have in your system?
 
#63
vuki said:
Hi Bobken,

maybe you can, but I can't. Or, to tell you the truth - I never tried. But, for example - I can't hear the difference between some cheap RCA connectors and Eichman Bulletplugs. At least, I can't hear it when I can't see the cable 😉

BTW what do you have in your system?
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Eichmann Bullets-silver versions! 😉

Mostly self-constructed, and some heavily modified equipment, actually.

All self-made single-strand silver cables, though, as they just 'sound' better than anything else I have (yet!) tried.

If there are other 'weaknesses' in any system, it is much harder or impossible to hear these small differences we are talking about here, in my experience. However, if you can overcome the masking effects brought about by any weak points in the entire audio chain, and take the time to make careful comparisons, I am sure you would hear the differences.

When I 'upgraded' the vol. pots. in a heavily modded Spectral pre-amp (for the 4th time!) to Shallco switches and all Vishay Bulk-foil resistors, I was then able to assess a lot more details in the rest of the system, for example.

Incidentally, you might just have been lucky with the cheap RCAs you mentioned, as some of them (very few) actually sound quite good. They are usually low mass connectors, being cheap the makers save on materials, and these 'sonically' beat the high mass 'cable-jewellery' type of connectors in my experience!

Regards,
 
#64
SY said:
I'm becoming rapidly convinced that there's no such thing as a reliable attenuator.
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Stuart, a reliable attenuator is possible IMO, but at least some re-think of the commonly-used mechanisms will be required (again IMO). And a fair degree of precision fabrication, which implies that such a device will not be cheap. A clever design may reduce the need for precision in fabrication, but probably not eliminate it.

regards, jonathan carr
 
#67
Bob, I have to concur with you. I hear connectors and contacts as well. This is not what I wish for, but what is in my reality. I approach all new ideas with caution. I wanted to stick to gold on gold relays, but my associate, Bob Crump, showed me that silver on silver switches were practical and really made a difference. Now how much difference? Only with the best playback, is it important to me. I could listen to TV all day through gold contacts and be happy. However, a favorite vinyl record with a $1000+ phono cartridge designed by Jonathan Carr, and my Vendetta phono stage, and I can hear a silver switch compared to gold contact relays. Is this a blessing or a curse? Well, being in the audio business, this helps me do my best.
 
#71
SY, we will NEVER be 'scientific' enough for some folks, but it would appear that Jonathan Carr and I are so much in 'sync' that it is embarrassing. Come on someone, do something so different that it is almost unrecognizable, but will still match or beat our best efforts, sonically. No tubes please, only because I can't copy tubes, just solid state.😉
 
#72
Fuzzy distortion ? Contact is wrong, 'cos designer applied unsuitable type for this concrete application... But I'm asking about difference of sound of GOOD contacts, if you understand me, gentlemen... Do you can to tell, that good contact make only silver ? Why ? 'cos it is astral metal ?
 
#73
Milan, I'm no voodoo guy, so I won't go where you're trying to lead J and J; a good contact is a simpler matter in my universe than theirs. But when we talk about avoiding audible effects from contacts, especially over time, materials do greatly matter. Oxides and other tarnishes, surface wear and roughness, electrolytic effects... you know the drill.

If I were doing cost-no-object, I'd be thinking hermetic and mercury-wetted. That's very politically incorrect.
 
#74
jcarr said:
I use Shallcos, and I assure you that they can also develop contact problems, without a whole lot of encouragement, either 🙂. Stronger tension on the brushes will give the blades on the ends of the brushes a better chance to "cut through" oxides and whatnot and keep the contacts refreshed and working, however the price that one pays is a significantly stiffer, notchier feel. This may be OK for lab or industrial equipment, but home consumers will complain.

What I've taken to doing is to completely disassemble each and every switch, _slightly_ grind down the silver contacts to bring their surfaces level, true whatever else may be a little off in the switch, and reassemble them. Even this doesn't seem to be enough to totally eliminate contact problems, but it helps a lot, and it also give a smoother, lighter feel.

Truth is, I haven't encountered any switch that didn't cause some kind of problem sooner or later (unless the brush tension was raised to a level that triggered complaints from consumers). Maybe if you only have a couple of units, you may not see any problems, but if you deal in hundreds (like we do in manufacturing), there will be problems. The old Seidens were perhaps the best, but after their corporate restructuring and downsizing, the designers all seem to have departed (AFAIK), and it doesn't look like Seiden has any new design or development capability left. OK if the old designs are sufficient for your needs, not so OK if you want something else.

And AFAIR, $237 isn't enough to buy the better Shallco switches (and not including any resistors). At least, not the ones that we use (which are admittedly custom specials).

hth, jonathan carr
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Id have to say you make some really nice product's. Keep up the good work. Look's Fantastic.
 
#75
SY said:
Milan, I'm no voodoo guy, so I won't go where you're trying to lead J and J...;
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Stuart, I presume you meant Pavel (Upupa).

As for me, I'm off this love boat. I know I've overextended my stay when my posts start vanishing into thin air (I've always wondered what's beyond Texas and now I know).

Regards,
Milan


P.S. Jonathan, thumbs up!
 
#77
John, thank you for visiting.

If you spoke any Croatian, you'd know the website is a joint non-profit effort of a couple of DIYers (me being one of them). It's a cute little thing and great pastime (picture below). 🙂

Regards,
Milan

siemox_6.JPG
 
#79
Problematic of good connection is really very wide, Stuart, and we can't trash out this question in a few words... Statement about " sound of contact " is in this context very oversimplified and for me personnaly smell by voodoo...BTW, many similar statements you can explain by psychoaccoustic and refutate by objective constructed test...but often it is not in interest of author of this statement...
 
#80
Pavel, I think we agree 100%. When an audible difference between contacts can be verified, there is a basic physical cause. The vice versa ("if I can imagine some vaguely plausible effect, it must be audible") is not one I'm happy with.

I'd still like to see a vacuum (or inert gas) and mercury wetting.
 
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