Well I for one found the comments on Caig products to be very interesting, as I have used them for many years when restoring/servicing old equipment which is suffering from intermittent contacts.
So far, I have not found anything any more effective for this purpose.
However, I have not used Caig products on new connectors etc., and then carried out a listening trial as Peter has done, so his results and John's comments are useful.
I recall reading Enid Lumley's adverse comments many years ago, when she said you cannot get rid of this product (which was called Cramolin then) once applied, by using anything other than abrading the contacts back to virgin metal, by the use of a file or sandpaper!
So far, I have not found anything any more effective for this purpose.
However, I have not used Caig products on new connectors etc., and then carried out a listening trial as Peter has done, so his results and John's comments are useful.
I recall reading Enid Lumley's adverse comments many years ago, when she said you cannot get rid of this product (which was called Cramolin then) once applied, by using anything other than abrading the contacts back to virgin metal, by the use of a file or sandpaper!
Thank you, SY.
I even don't believe that TKDs are the best for the price. A price of about $20,000 leaves a good marging for using $273 a piece Shallco rotary switches (that come with 176 Halco resistors and as such are not suitable for the more leisurely inclined ).
Regards,
Milan
I even don't believe that TKDs are the best for the price. A price of about $20,000 leaves a good marging for using $273 a piece Shallco rotary switches (that come with 176 Halco resistors and as such are not suitable for the more leisurely inclined ).
Regards,
Milan
Milan...
All I said was that one of the volume controls was displaying a bit of noise at certain positions intermittently. It actually did not even show up again last night after I rotated the control through those positions rapidly several times, as suggested. Personally, I have enjoyed the discussion, and now I know that when the time comes - which it will to ANY mechanical switch - isopropyl alcohol is the best solution. Thanks John!
All I said was that one of the volume controls was displaying a bit of noise at certain positions intermittently. It actually did not even show up again last night after I rotated the control through those positions rapidly several times, as suggested. Personally, I have enjoyed the discussion, and now I know that when the time comes - which it will to ANY mechanical switch - isopropyl alcohol is the best solution. Thanks John!
Hi Milan,
To prevent someone from destroying a piece of gear, it is worthy to discuss this. I've seen people use just about everything to clean switches and controls. 😉
-Chris
Well, it's a fact of life that all contacts will oxidize over time. Some parts have been sitting on a shelve in less than ideal conditions before the manuafacturer even receives them. Some Marantz gear suffered from this.
To prevent someone from destroying a piece of gear, it is worthy to discuss this. I've seen people use just about everything to clean switches and controls. 😉
-Chris
moamps said:
Holco (Halco) resistors would not sound good in top notch attenuator application, I hope TKD uses better ones.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=27031&stamp=1019709764]
Anatech...
I agree. I have Caig Pro Gold on hand and probably would have used it if not for this discussion. The stuff really does work well on connectors. I appreciate the opportunity to avoid a potentially costly mistake!
I agree. I have Caig Pro Gold on hand and probably would have used it if not for this discussion. The stuff really does work well on connectors. I appreciate the opportunity to avoid a potentially costly mistake!
Hi Milan,
Geophysicist,
Most low signal level contacts are plated with silver or gold. You have to be careful that the plating is not removed when using an eraser. Go slow and use a light touch. Many times I'll use a cleaner and remove it later after it has a chance to dissolve the oxides and other stuff. Then the switch can self clean again.
-Chris
Don't even suggest that! Someone may actually use them. 😀
Geophysicist,
Most low signal level contacts are plated with silver or gold. You have to be careful that the plating is not removed when using an eraser. Go slow and use a light touch. Many times I'll use a cleaner and remove it later after it has a chance to dissolve the oxides and other stuff. Then the switch can self clean again.
-Chris
So... Geophysicist will open his BT afterall...
As they say - never say never!
Time to prepare good camera 😀
As they say - never say never!
Time to prepare good camera 😀
Read what I said..."It actually did not even show up again last night after I rotated the control through those positions rapidly several times, as suggested." Don't get too excited. 🙂
My expirience tells me that guys who buy expensive preamps can't be happy on the long run if they have to rapidly rotate volume control every now and than. 😉
Hi vuki,
I have to do that with several of my units too. I'm not happy about it, but I don't want to constantly pull these things apart to clean them either.
Speaking of which, I have to clean the controls on my Nakamichi TA-2 again. But this is better than listening to volume control IC's. I hate input switching IC's too, but I can't pulll them out of this one.
-Chris
I have to do that with several of my units too. I'm not happy about it, but I don't want to constantly pull these things apart to clean them either.
Speaking of which, I have to clean the controls on my Nakamichi TA-2 again. But this is better than listening to volume control IC's. I hate input switching IC's too, but I can't pulll them out of this one.
-Chris
It's a used unit. The pot might have seen an impact in handling, or even (gasp!) had a speck of internal dust from the factory.
Re: Anatech...
This is facinating! So I'll though in my two cents. I have used the Caig products since it was called Stabilant (I think that's correct). I have had it do nothing but good things, new or old connections. The fact that it coats the surface is actually a good thing because it keeps films and oxidation from returning to the freshly cleaned surface. I have cleaned thermocouple connections that were notiorious for causing drifting and had the problems never return over multiple years;
My test to find out how benign this stuff is was to treate all of the contacts to the processor and memory in my HP computer. I made a point of using alot. Any electrical or leakage issues would be readily apparent in this application. No problems.
I get to thinking about it and I could list hundreds of examples.
Try making cold weld power connections and treating the wire and connector before you crimp them, Beats soldering sonically and it doesn't degrade with time.
Pencil erasers, someone should mention to only use the white plastic type. The pink ones used to have an abrasive in them that would damage the platings.
Oxide buildup is only one issue with contacts, I have a book that talks about nothing but contacts. I don't have the details with me but I can supply later.
How can people learn if the same old wives tales are permitted to be repeated as fact. Enid Lumley had an awesome set of ears; her interpertations of why thing happened was always suspect.
Mike.
Geophysicist said:
This is facinating! So I'll though in my two cents. I have used the Caig products since it was called Stabilant (I think that's correct). I have had it do nothing but good things, new or old connections. The fact that it coats the surface is actually a good thing because it keeps films and oxidation from returning to the freshly cleaned surface. I have cleaned thermocouple connections that were notiorious for causing drifting and had the problems never return over multiple years;
My test to find out how benign this stuff is was to treate all of the contacts to the processor and memory in my HP computer. I made a point of using alot. Any electrical or leakage issues would be readily apparent in this application. No problems.
I get to thinking about it and I could list hundreds of examples.
Try making cold weld power connections and treating the wire and connector before you crimp them, Beats soldering sonically and it doesn't degrade with time.
Pencil erasers, someone should mention to only use the white plastic type. The pink ones used to have an abrasive in them that would damage the platings.
Oxide buildup is only one issue with contacts, I have a book that talks about nothing but contacts. I don't have the details with me but I can supply later.
How can people learn if the same old wives tales are permitted to be repeated as fact. Enid Lumley had an awesome set of ears; her interpertations of why thing happened was always suspect.
Mike.
Hi Mike,
At one time, it was called Cramolin, and I first heard about it being recommended by Walt Jung, probably in the mid 70's, in the early "Pooge" articles in The Audio Amateur. There was also an article by Bob Macintyre (?) extolling its virtues in TAA sometime later.
I have used it more for maintenance purposes (like noisy pots) ever since then, and have never noticed any sonic deterioration, but I have not done any 'before and after' tests like Peter, mainly because the items being treated sounded lousy beforehand, anyway.
Mostly I have used the 5% diluted products which have more cleaner and less of the 'active' ingredient in their formulation, which may have helped.
When It was called Cramolin, Caig advised against using too much, or at least leaving too much of the material on the contacts after application. They said these should be wiped clean to leave merely a hint of the material, and in those days there was a second application of 'preservative', which was blue in colour, whilst the active ingredient was red.
I'm not sure about the famous Enid, though, but, at the time I read her comments, I wondered if possibly the better electrical conductivity had highlighted some problems elsewhere in the system.
It wouldn't be the first time this has happend, and the wrong thing got the blame!
However as John and Peter both say that they have 'heard' some downsides, sometime I will conduct a suitable trial to see what I hear, and report my listening results. I am a little reluctant to do this with any good connectors, though, in view of Enid's comment that it can only later be removed by abrading it off the contacts.
Regards,
At one time, it was called Cramolin, and I first heard about it being recommended by Walt Jung, probably in the mid 70's, in the early "Pooge" articles in The Audio Amateur. There was also an article by Bob Macintyre (?) extolling its virtues in TAA sometime later.
I have used it more for maintenance purposes (like noisy pots) ever since then, and have never noticed any sonic deterioration, but I have not done any 'before and after' tests like Peter, mainly because the items being treated sounded lousy beforehand, anyway.
Mostly I have used the 5% diluted products which have more cleaner and less of the 'active' ingredient in their formulation, which may have helped.
When It was called Cramolin, Caig advised against using too much, or at least leaving too much of the material on the contacts after application. They said these should be wiped clean to leave merely a hint of the material, and in those days there was a second application of 'preservative', which was blue in colour, whilst the active ingredient was red.
I'm not sure about the famous Enid, though, but, at the time I read her comments, I wondered if possibly the better electrical conductivity had highlighted some problems elsewhere in the system.
It wouldn't be the first time this has happend, and the wrong thing got the blame!
However as John and Peter both say that they have 'heard' some downsides, sometime I will conduct a suitable trial to see what I hear, and report my listening results. I am a little reluctant to do this with any good connectors, though, in view of Enid's comment that it can only later be removed by abrading it off the contacts.
Regards,
Well I got you folks 'thinking'. 😉
Well Mike, it isn't such a big problem, after-all, and you learned something new. Twenty five years ago or so, I started using Cramolin. I bought bottles of both red and blue. Red was to clean, blue was to preserve. The early Cramolin was great! It cleaned like mad, Today's Cramolin is OK, but not what it used to be. I even have a can of super strong Cramolin that would de-rust a car!
These sort of cleaners often have a lubricant-preservative added. This is essentially micro-crystaline grease. This is GREAT for mismatched contact platings, such as gold and tin. I fixed my Apple 2 computer with this stuff, but this is NOT what quality audio is about.
MikeB, Stabilant 22 was made for the Canadian Telephone Co and sold in this country as Tweek. It is a microcrystaline grease.
I personally don't find listening through 'grease' as good as a clean, dry contact.
Well Mike, it isn't such a big problem, after-all, and you learned something new. Twenty five years ago or so, I started using Cramolin. I bought bottles of both red and blue. Red was to clean, blue was to preserve. The early Cramolin was great! It cleaned like mad, Today's Cramolin is OK, but not what it used to be. I even have a can of super strong Cramolin that would de-rust a car!
These sort of cleaners often have a lubricant-preservative added. This is essentially micro-crystaline grease. This is GREAT for mismatched contact platings, such as gold and tin. I fixed my Apple 2 computer with this stuff, but this is NOT what quality audio is about.
MikeB, Stabilant 22 was made for the Canadian Telephone Co and sold in this country as Tweek. It is a microcrystaline grease.
I personally don't find listening through 'grease' as good as a clean, dry contact.
I use Shallcos, and I assure you that they can also develop contact problems, without a whole lot of encouragement, either 🙂. Stronger tension on the brushes will give the blades on the ends of the brushes a better chance to "cut through" oxides and whatnot and keep the contacts refreshed and working, however the price that one pays is a significantly stiffer, notchier feel. This may be OK for lab or industrial equipment, but home consumers will complain.
What I've taken to doing is to completely disassemble each and every switch, _slightly_ grind down the silver contacts to bring their surfaces level, true whatever else may be a little off in the switch, and reassemble them. Even this doesn't seem to be enough to totally eliminate contact problems, but it helps a lot, and it also give a smoother, lighter feel.
Truth is, I haven't encountered any switch that didn't cause some kind of problem sooner or later (unless the brush tension was raised to a level that triggered complaints from consumers). Maybe if you only have a couple of units, you may not see any problems, but if you deal in hundreds (like we do in manufacturing), there will be problems. The old Seidens were perhaps the best, but after their corporate restructuring and downsizing, the designers all seem to have departed (AFAIK), and it doesn't look like Seiden has any new design or development capability left. OK if the old designs are sufficient for your needs, not so OK if you want something else.
And AFAIR, $237 isn't enough to buy the better Shallco switches (and not including any resistors). At least, not the ones that we use (which are admittedly custom specials).
hth, jonathan carr
What I've taken to doing is to completely disassemble each and every switch, _slightly_ grind down the silver contacts to bring their surfaces level, true whatever else may be a little off in the switch, and reassemble them. Even this doesn't seem to be enough to totally eliminate contact problems, but it helps a lot, and it also give a smoother, lighter feel.
Truth is, I haven't encountered any switch that didn't cause some kind of problem sooner or later (unless the brush tension was raised to a level that triggered complaints from consumers). Maybe if you only have a couple of units, you may not see any problems, but if you deal in hundreds (like we do in manufacturing), there will be problems. The old Seidens were perhaps the best, but after their corporate restructuring and downsizing, the designers all seem to have departed (AFAIK), and it doesn't look like Seiden has any new design or development capability left. OK if the old designs are sufficient for your needs, not so OK if you want something else.
And AFAIR, $237 isn't enough to buy the better Shallco switches (and not including any resistors). At least, not the ones that we use (which are admittedly custom specials).
hth, jonathan carr
Mike B...
As I said, I think it's good stuff for a number of applications. I use it (lightly) on my RCAs and speaker cable spades every 6 months or so. But when the designer of my preamp tells me that he wouldn't use it on his contacts and that there's something out there as easy to find and use as isopropyl, and which will do the job...well, I'm going to listen.
BTW, where in Va.? I grew up in Richmond and attended U.Va.
Mike
As I said, I think it's good stuff for a number of applications. I use it (lightly) on my RCAs and speaker cable spades every 6 months or so. But when the designer of my preamp tells me that he wouldn't use it on his contacts and that there's something out there as easy to find and use as isopropyl, and which will do the job...well, I'm going to listen.
BTW, where in Va.? I grew up in Richmond and attended U.Va.
Mike
John, you old f@rt! I can't believe you said that. Please, please, please tell me you don't drive an Oldsmobile as well 😀
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