Even with a pro live rig, and speakers, we always had compressor/limiter running the mixer master out to the amps. Even then
when things got (very) loud it eventually took out an 18 inch sub-woofer cone. Kick drum and bass played live together can make for some pretty heavy transients. Before we had those big sub woofers, the bass sounded "alright" through 15 inch speakers, but with the big 18 inch ones you could feel it!
when things got (very) loud it eventually took out an 18 inch sub-woofer cone. Kick drum and bass played live together can make for some pretty heavy transients. Before we had those big sub woofers, the bass sounded "alright" through 15 inch speakers, but with the big 18 inch ones you could feel it!
It can be done but you end up replicating a PA system, including compressor/limiter and pile of EQ. And/or huge amounts of headroom.
(I've blown up plenty of gear over the years, including trying to use HiFi gear for bass.)
Live, the sound guy may want to run you through a DI as live miking of basses can be challenging. That's where amps (or pre-amps) with a DI out can be useful. And that allows one to practice or record (at low volume) with half-decent "HiFi" gear.
But live (unless you know the venue) you can't rely on having that option available.
At the end of the day, most HiFi speakers simply doesn't have the efficiency (db/w) nor the ability to move air (Sd x Xmax) at bass frequencies to be useful next to a drummer. Nor a guitarist with a 12W valve amp.
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What about a simple preamp (pedal?) into one of these home cinema subwoofers? has anyone tried that?
The problem with that is the built in pow pass filter, and the frequency response of the driver itself. You might muster enough output at 50 Hz, but probably not enough at 500 because it’s not meant to play there. And no ”tone” to speak of. And typical home subs are built so effing cheap that it might not survive more than 5 minutes before letting out the magic smoke.
Ha, was just reading through this thread and found a link to one of my old blog posts. I'm still using these speakers, as I'm comfortable with their sound as a reference.
I do play guitar through them some times.. but via a Behringer GDI21 amp simulator pedal -> Midas DM12 mixer -> DIY 50W Tripath amp, at moderate volumes nearfield. Though I'm more likely to be practicing my DJing with them these days.
I wouldn't plug a guitar straight into the amp though, I'd at least use a small mixer and amp sim pedal to manage levels and eq.
For general guitar practice and messing about I have a cheap guitar amp I got from ebay which is better for this though.
Something that hasn’t really been mentioned yet is this: very-low-frequencies.
A palm-muted guitar “chug” or the pluck of a bass string can produce some VLF content which will be problematic for some drivers.
HiFi amps, of course, are often designed with a wide bandwidth in mind, so they’ll happily transmit those VLF signals.
A sensible bass preamp will feature a high pass filter to ensure those signals aren’t amplified.
Further, the frequency response of a typical bass cab will show a sloping LF response, allowing more of the mid-high “tone” to come through. A typical HiFi speaker will have a much flatter LF response, resulting in the drivers attempting larger excursions than typically expected.
We can see, then, that putting a bass guitar through a HiFi is a risky business, but those risks can be mitigated with some processing.
Chris
A palm-muted guitar “chug” or the pluck of a bass string can produce some VLF content which will be problematic for some drivers.
HiFi amps, of course, are often designed with a wide bandwidth in mind, so they’ll happily transmit those VLF signals.
A sensible bass preamp will feature a high pass filter to ensure those signals aren’t amplified.
Further, the frequency response of a typical bass cab will show a sloping LF response, allowing more of the mid-high “tone” to come through. A typical HiFi speaker will have a much flatter LF response, resulting in the drivers attempting larger excursions than typically expected.
We can see, then, that putting a bass guitar through a HiFi is a risky business, but those risks can be mitigated with some processing.
Chris
Chris,
Here is a screen capture of playing the low E (41Hz) on a Yamaha RBX-260 bass guitar (passive magnetic pickups) then slapping the strings.
Not only was the slap around 14dB louder than a normally played string at 40Hz, it was 20dB louder at 12Hz (100 times the power), near 10dB (10 times the power) louder at 3 Hz.
That VLF, if not high-passed, would be problematic for any driver!
Art
I make Bass Guitar amplifiers and cabinets since 1969, have delivered some 10.000 of them so far.
Used all over the place in Argentina, from Clubs to 40.000/60.000 people Stadiums.
Have always high-passed amps and preamps; large systems >40Hz, smaller combos >60 Hz, go figure.
Sending speaker lower frequencies than they can handle only makes them flap back and forth, stretch suspensions, suffer, and NOT producing useful sound at all.
Notice in your picture above the STRONG harmonics at (roughly) 80-120-160Hz, all louder than fundamental, and what people actually hear, fundamental is reconstructed as needed at listener´s brain, NO penalty (not a Musical one at least) for attenuating 40Hz and below. .
As of "Slap", all of my heads actually have a SLAP button in the preamp, go figure 😉
(AND a very good not-too-linear Compressor, AND an Even Harmonics Generator, AND .... lots of tasty features "under the hood")
Used all over the place in Argentina, from Clubs to 40.000/60.000 people Stadiums.
Have always high-passed amps and preamps; large systems >40Hz, smaller combos >60 Hz, go figure.
Sending speaker lower frequencies than they can handle only makes them flap back and forth, stretch suspensions, suffer, and NOT producing useful sound at all.
Notice in your picture above the STRONG harmonics at (roughly) 80-120-160Hz, all louder than fundamental, and what people actually hear, fundamental is reconstructed as needed at listener´s brain, NO penalty (not a Musical one at least) for attenuating 40Hz and below. .
As of "Slap", all of my heads actually have a SLAP button in the preamp, go figure 😉
(AND a very good not-too-linear Compressor, AND an Even Harmonics Generator, AND .... lots of tasty features "under the hood")
Well for recording or monitoring at home.
Just used a mixer with RCA outputs.
then plugged guitar or bass into instrument level channel
on the mixer. mixer had RCA line level outputs.
Just used pretty normal 100 watt Kenwood receiver.
Have used normal 3 way hifi speakers or simple satellite speakers with a small sub.
Nothing blew up.
Using various guitar and bass plugins.
Your just monitoring a mix like any other recording.
Nothing special.
My soundcard has instrument levels as well.
plug in the guitar or bass, then monitor the software through the speakers.
just like any other computer with monitors.
When I first started i only had computer speakers with a sub.
Since the levels are same as playing music.
I dont get it.
Actually running the Ampeg plugin, and using a plain old
computer speakers. The sub sounded really good.
nothing blew up, it is just a monitor.
playing back at usual monitor levels.
Just used a mixer with RCA outputs.
then plugged guitar or bass into instrument level channel
on the mixer. mixer had RCA line level outputs.
Just used pretty normal 100 watt Kenwood receiver.
Have used normal 3 way hifi speakers or simple satellite speakers with a small sub.
Nothing blew up.
Using various guitar and bass plugins.
Your just monitoring a mix like any other recording.
Nothing special.
My soundcard has instrument levels as well.
plug in the guitar or bass, then monitor the software through the speakers.
just like any other computer with monitors.
When I first started i only had computer speakers with a sub.
Since the levels are same as playing music.
I dont get it.
Actually running the Ampeg plugin, and using a plain old
computer speakers. The sub sounded really good.
nothing blew up, it is just a monitor.
playing back at usual monitor levels.
At home? "Bedroom levels?"
NO "real" drummer involved?
Sure thing, no big deal.
After all your Hi Fi will easily play a whole band record, including Guitar-Bass-Drums-Keyboards-Voice-the works,to wife, dog and neighbour annoying levels.
But you add a real live drummer to the mix and everything now needs 10 to 20 dB higher SPL just to match him; that separates the men from the boys.
NO "real" drummer involved?
Sure thing, no big deal.
After all your Hi Fi will easily play a whole band record, including Guitar-Bass-Drums-Keyboards-Voice-the works,to wife, dog and neighbour annoying levels.
But you add a real live drummer to the mix and everything now needs 10 to 20 dB higher SPL just to match him; that separates the men from the boys.
Hmm.
That is why many drummers ( even in small bands -where level management can be a nightmare in bars and clubs...) now use Vdrums and other e-drums live... as well as IEM and guitarist and bass players amp simulators and IR...
But it seems most peoples answering this thread are locked in the 70's/80's/90's habits. Funnily enough some very talented players from this area are not:
https://www.kemper-amps.com/hall-of-fame
That is why many drummers ( even in small bands -where level management can be a nightmare in bars and clubs...) now use Vdrums and other e-drums live... as well as IEM and guitarist and bass players amp simulators and IR...
But it seems most peoples answering this thread are locked in the 70's/80's/90's habits. Funnily enough some very talented players from this area are not:
https://www.kemper-amps.com/hall-of-fame
Well, that eases requirements considerably 🙂
Kempers?
Not that much.
They are typically used with FRFR 200W 1 x 12" to 1kW 4x12" powered cabinets for pants flapping sound 😉
With your own customers i'm sure that they use this kind of cabs and power ( but to be honest, if i could play big stage and big room rehearsal, i won't bother with digital and play an amp with cab and mic... the way it should be in my view).
With the musicians i see ( and play with) there is too much hassle...
One of the drummer i play with hit so hard we had issues with limiters on FOH in small club as to cover him we couldn't play more than half a track without having the limiter shuting down the foh... we had to use e-drum.
In last ten years in my area i've seen the number of eDrum going from 1/year to 1/month on acts i know of.
Some genre are slowly dying ( or going outdoor and illegal) like dub or electronics bass heavy... because of limitations on SPL in venues ( which is a good thing in a way for ear's health but not about cultural diversity...).
With the musicians i see ( and play with) there is too much hassle...
One of the drummer i play with hit so hard we had issues with limiters on FOH in small club as to cover him we couldn't play more than half a track without having the limiter shuting down the foh... we had to use e-drum.
In last ten years in my area i've seen the number of eDrum going from 1/year to 1/month on acts i know of.
Some genre are slowly dying ( or going outdoor and illegal) like dub or electronics bass heavy... because of limitations on SPL in venues ( which is a good thing in a way for ear's health but not about cultural diversity...).
Nah, in the eighties we used drum machines. Problem solved. Make that two problems solved 🙂
SPL is, as you point out, the core issue relating to this question. I played in (and listening to*) live bands and spent a of time around race cars. All before SPL limits. My hearing has suffered significantly as a result. I can't recommend that to anyone.
(*I recall the Jesus and Mary Chain as one band which sounded better downstairs & outside the venue than inside due to the off-the-richter SPL levels)
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That sounds like the Boston concert at the USF Sun Dome back in the late 80’s. I listened to the entire thing from two and a half miles away in the field where the Tech Center is now. Best seat in the house. The entire campus was littered with beer cans next morning - you could walk from one side of campus to the other without your feet actually touching ground. Everyone in the world had the same idea. And anyone who actually had tickets and went into the venue couldn’t hear for a week.