Steve: Silly boy. Jonathan Scull wrote that his French wife Kathleen was enamored by the sound of the two channels connected in series, n'est-ce pas?
A CF won't exactly do the same thing as the transformer.
A CF won't exactly do the same thing as the transformer.
fdegrove said:
Ah, ok. Thought you might have meant ClownFace and wondering if I need to make up a ClownFace emoticon.
How 'bout an IGC preceded by a transformer driving a cathode follower? Get some tube action going with a little taste of iron. 🙂
se
SY said:
Hey now, don't go dissin' my buddy J10. We go way back. I knew him when he was just J1. 🙂
Nope. Nor vice versa.
se
Hi,
Eeeek...a xformer " driving" something....??
Time for you to go snorkling I'd say...and why would you want to drive a lowZ source such as the xormer?
Technically that would amount to a pleonasm...
Cheers,😉
Eeeek...a xformer " driving" something....??
Time for you to go snorkling I'd say...and why would you want to drive a lowZ source such as the xormer?
Technically that would amount to a pleonasm...
Cheers,😉
most recent chip power amps sound great unless driven into clipping.
When driven into clipping they create some nasty artefacts due to rail sticking. however so do some badly designed discrete class ab's.
When not allowed to run hot they may also be more reliable than a descrete design.
I built a couple of chip amps based on the lm3886 and lm3876 and they sound FANTASTIC untill they just start to clip, then they sound very crap very quickly. I have fairly efficient spkrs and live in a flat so i dont have the volume up very loud and clipping rarely happens.
Peter Daniel, You like the DK's too?? i have plastic surgery disasters, in god we trust inc, give me convenience or give me death and fresh fruit for rotting vegetables. Just to go off topic a little.
When driven into clipping they create some nasty artefacts due to rail sticking. however so do some badly designed discrete class ab's.
When not allowed to run hot they may also be more reliable than a descrete design.
I built a couple of chip amps based on the lm3886 and lm3876 and they sound FANTASTIC untill they just start to clip, then they sound very crap very quickly. I have fairly efficient spkrs and live in a flat so i dont have the volume up very loud and clipping rarely happens.
Peter Daniel, You like the DK's too?? i have plastic surgery disasters, in god we trust inc, give me convenience or give me death and fresh fruit for rotting vegetables. Just to go off topic a little.
Konnichiwa,
Not sure about the "egotripping" part, but the idea of a transformercoupled, balanced (aka Bridge) Chipamp with input and output transformers is a lot less daft than it may seem at first....
The subject of an Input transformer for splitting the signal for bridging has been extensively covered. Makng the Amp balanced helps the PSU a little.
If we now add a suitable output autoformer (Auto-Transformer primary is tapped to provide the "secondary") to allow the bridged chips to be presented with a load of appx. 16 Ohm each while the speaker can be matched at 2/4/8/16 Ohm we have a very simple amplifier with likely excellent sound better load tollerance than even the normal IGC and around 90 - 100W power....
Looking at the subject, the core for the output transformer should be around equal to 400VA Mains transformer (based on being able to pass 400VA @ 50/60Hz without saturating and thus 200VA @ 25/30Hz and leaving some reserve).
Any takers?
Sayonara
fdegrove said:
Not sure about the "egotripping" part, but the idea of a transformercoupled, balanced (aka Bridge) Chipamp with input and output transformers is a lot less daft than it may seem at first....
The subject of an Input transformer for splitting the signal for bridging has been extensively covered. Makng the Amp balanced helps the PSU a little.
If we now add a suitable output autoformer (Auto-Transformer primary is tapped to provide the "secondary") to allow the bridged chips to be presented with a load of appx. 16 Ohm each while the speaker can be matched at 2/4/8/16 Ohm we have a very simple amplifier with likely excellent sound better load tollerance than even the normal IGC and around 90 - 100W power....
Looking at the subject, the core for the output transformer should be around equal to 400VA Mains transformer (based on being able to pass 400VA @ 50/60Hz without saturating and thus 200VA @ 25/30Hz and leaving some reserve).
Any takers?
Sayonara
Hold on,
Wasn’t it the charm of Gainclones being small and beautiful driving efficient speakers?
Bridging and paralleling these chippies is misusing them IMHO.
Cheers 🙂
Wasn’t it the charm of Gainclones being small and beautiful driving efficient speakers?
Bridging and paralleling these chippies is misusing them IMHO.
Cheers 🙂
fdegrove said:
I mentioned OTL because I didn't want anybody thinking that I wanted to build a McIntosh clone.
🙄
Actually, I was thinking of building a massively-paralleled 12AU7 OTL just to tee off everybody over on the tubes forum.
Souping up the Gainclone
... my previous post got little attention but its meaning comes to light...
Souping up your Golf until you could have had a BMW for the price will give you, well, a souped up Golf. Not a BMW.
Golfs get excellently and competently built, with massive economies of scale. Still, the design has limitations which will not disappear by souping them up. BMW's basic design choices sets their limitations much higher, even though the base models may appear more mundane than the high end Golfs.
Same story as souped up 35 mm photography vs. Large Format, souped up chip vs. discrete amp etc etc.
Just use things for what they were designed for. Sigh.
Disclaimer: I never owned a Golf or a BMW but I enjoyed driving both. I most enjoyed driving my old turbo Lancia though.
Currently I own no car at all.
... my previous post got little attention but its meaning comes to light...
Souping up your Golf until you could have had a BMW for the price will give you, well, a souped up Golf. Not a BMW.
Golfs get excellently and competently built, with massive economies of scale. Still, the design has limitations which will not disappear by souping them up. BMW's basic design choices sets their limitations much higher, even though the base models may appear more mundane than the high end Golfs.
Same story as souped up 35 mm photography vs. Large Format, souped up chip vs. discrete amp etc etc.
Just use things for what they were designed for. Sigh.
Disclaimer: I never owned a Golf or a BMW but I enjoyed driving both. I most enjoyed driving my old turbo Lancia though.
Currently I own no car at all.
Konnichiwa,
Is this not the "DIY Audio" board?
Otherwise, methinks the "Zero" should do okay....http://www.zeroimpedance.com/
Sayonara
SY said:
Is this not the "DIY Audio" board?
Otherwise, methinks the "Zero" should do okay....http://www.zeroimpedance.com/
Sayonara
Re: Souping up the Gainclone
Konnichiwa,
Hmmm. But that is not the way it is. The LM3875 is a modestly powered but very nicely designed engine. Chances are very few other "Op-Amp" style Amplifers (discrete or not) can compete.
So, by giving this Engine a suitable chassis and gearbox and by linking tow together you get a major hotrod. The output Transformer can be home-made using a suitable mains torroid or purchased from a few sources. Or you can get suitable EI Lams (easy) and wind your own which is quite easy. As a "gearbox" analogue this simply makes sure that low impednace, "difficult" speakers can be driven and doubling the Output power just makes sure the Amp's stay outside clipping a little longer.
Yup, but what if you put the Golf GTI Turbo Engine into a racing chassis and put that up against a BMW 316? It will make it eat dust for speed, acceleration and sheer driving fun.
Ahhm, that comparison limps badly.
Most discrete low level and High Level (Power) Amplifier circuits that follow the Op-Amp structure (LTP,VAS,Power Follower) are at the best the equal of the better chips, often much worse, objectively and subjectively. So it is more the difference between Excellently done souped up 35mm Photography vs. extremely badly done large format photography.
Yup. My PERSONAL suggestion is to go straight to the "System Design" topic and make the system fully active including suitable operation modes, meaning current feed (true current feed with near infinite output impedance) on midrange and tweeter and some form of Servo on the woofer(s), using fully actove, subtractive low level crossovers and EQ in the Poweramps feedback loop where needed for the drivers.
A nice starting point would be something like the Orion by SL using a "midrange" driver with a suitably low Qm and a well damped (maybe coaxial?) tweeter, all current feed and using the classic "gainclone" type supply. Again, I would likely use the Seas XP Cone 7" Coaxial Driver for that, it has the right Qm and otherwise a good design.
Then a dual 10"-12" Dipole woofer using bridged LM3886 per driver and a sensor (mike) before each cone to reduce distortion and compression, plus an EQ for the baffle rolloff.
Now here is a bet - implement the above well (component quality, layout, mechanical design of the Speaker) and you have something that will inherently outperform most High End systems regardless of cost, despite using only a load of "Golf Engines" and "Golf Tyres". As allways, it is less what you do that matters, it is the how that does....
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
MBK said:
... my previous post got little attention but its meaning comes to light...
Souping up your Golf until you could have had a BMW for the price will give you, well, a souped up Golf. Not a BMW.
Hmmm. But that is not the way it is. The LM3875 is a modestly powered but very nicely designed engine. Chances are very few other "Op-Amp" style Amplifers (discrete or not) can compete.
So, by giving this Engine a suitable chassis and gearbox and by linking tow together you get a major hotrod. The output Transformer can be home-made using a suitable mains torroid or purchased from a few sources. Or you can get suitable EI Lams (easy) and wind your own which is quite easy. As a "gearbox" analogue this simply makes sure that low impednace, "difficult" speakers can be driven and doubling the Output power just makes sure the Amp's stay outside clipping a little longer.
MBK said:
Yup, but what if you put the Golf GTI Turbo Engine into a racing chassis and put that up against a BMW 316? It will make it eat dust for speed, acceleration and sheer driving fun.
MBK said:
Ahhm, that comparison limps badly.
Most discrete low level and High Level (Power) Amplifier circuits that follow the Op-Amp structure (LTP,VAS,Power Follower) are at the best the equal of the better chips, often much worse, objectively and subjectively. So it is more the difference between Excellently done souped up 35mm Photography vs. extremely badly done large format photography.
MBK said:
Yup. My PERSONAL suggestion is to go straight to the "System Design" topic and make the system fully active including suitable operation modes, meaning current feed (true current feed with near infinite output impedance) on midrange and tweeter and some form of Servo on the woofer(s), using fully actove, subtractive low level crossovers and EQ in the Poweramps feedback loop where needed for the drivers.
A nice starting point would be something like the Orion by SL using a "midrange" driver with a suitably low Qm and a well damped (maybe coaxial?) tweeter, all current feed and using the classic "gainclone" type supply. Again, I would likely use the Seas XP Cone 7" Coaxial Driver for that, it has the right Qm and otherwise a good design.
Then a dual 10"-12" Dipole woofer using bridged LM3886 per driver and a sensor (mike) before each cone to reduce distortion and compression, plus an EQ for the baffle rolloff.
Now here is a bet - implement the above well (component quality, layout, mechanical design of the Speaker) and you have something that will inherently outperform most High End systems regardless of cost, despite using only a load of "Golf Engines" and "Golf Tyres". As allways, it is less what you do that matters, it is the how that does....
Sayonara
Sceptical about the transformer
I've read quite negative opinions about Zeroimpedance. After all it's pretty much a DIY mains transformer wound without any particular regards for audio. It seems to really improve the bass performance of marginal amp/speaker combos but at the expense (of course) of midrange purity. Seems like a high price to pay (let alone they also expect money for it 🙂) Now if Lundahl would create such a beast it would very probably be much better and a lot cheaper.
I've read quite negative opinions about Zeroimpedance. After all it's pretty much a DIY mains transformer wound without any particular regards for audio. It seems to really improve the bass performance of marginal amp/speaker combos but at the expense (of course) of midrange purity. Seems like a high price to pay (let alone they also expect money for it 🙂) Now if Lundahl would create such a beast it would very probably be much better and a lot cheaper.
Re: Re: Souping up the Gainclone
Well I used analogies, for illustration ... yet I still believe they hold a grain of truth.
Systems and dipoles: Half way there ;-) & sounds similar to my approach - though in the details I chose different angles and my system still needs better consistency and execution. Using 10" dipoles sub-310 Hz, and diatone fullrange above. Maybe should add tweeter for better dispersion but trade offs such as x-o. The chip amps for the woofers have enough power since I can use one per driver, easy load so no need for impedance corrections I believe, the numbers add up. Had chips for the fullrange too, trying Pass topology class A now. X-O still classic op amp style.
I still believe , especially with that kind of modular system, that discretes give you more freedom to adapt the amplification to your needs. With this kind of system, you don't *need* a "jack of all trades" such as a power amp chip.
To do this right, is my challenge and my game. Should I fail I put the chips back in ;-))
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Well I used analogies, for illustration ... yet I still believe they hold a grain of truth.
Systems and dipoles: Half way there ;-) & sounds similar to my approach - though in the details I chose different angles and my system still needs better consistency and execution. Using 10" dipoles sub-310 Hz, and diatone fullrange above. Maybe should add tweeter for better dispersion but trade offs such as x-o. The chip amps for the woofers have enough power since I can use one per driver, easy load so no need for impedance corrections I believe, the numbers add up. Had chips for the fullrange too, trying Pass topology class A now. X-O still classic op amp style.
I still believe , especially with that kind of modular system, that discretes give you more freedom to adapt the amplification to your needs. With this kind of system, you don't *need* a "jack of all trades" such as a power amp chip.
To do this right, is my challenge and my game. Should I fail I put the chips back in ;-))
Re: Re: Souping up the Gainclone
Agreed.
If you guys really want to compare photography with amps, here's my take.
I would compare GC to really souped up, compact, hot rod 35mm camera, like Nikon Ti for instance. Although it's small sized with features not matching the full out versions of bigger 35mm cameras, it has capabilities surpassing even the best SLRs (in certain categories, and the very small size makes it also very convenient).
Your better discreet amp, I would compare to Canon EOS, for instance. It seems big and full featured, but when you look at the pictures made with it, you noticed that something is missing (for me it's resolution and immediacy of exposed images). It has zoom and functions that make it perform in most any situations, yet, when you look at the pictures they don't look lively, but flat and boring.😉
So for last few years I haven't been using the big camera, but small one exclusively.
Now, if Halcro is as good as they claim, it could be Nikon F5 (if we want to stick to SLRs or maybe even a big format camera), but still, the big size and price prevents me from using it frequently and there is no much fun in using it as it's simply inconvenient, big and good only for professional work (at a time I had two F4 bodies but quickly sold them as they didn't see much use).
Also, the pictures done with Nikon Ti are not any worse that pictures done with Nikon F4, actually some of them were much better.
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Agreed.
If you guys really want to compare photography with amps, here's my take.
I would compare GC to really souped up, compact, hot rod 35mm camera, like Nikon Ti for instance. Although it's small sized with features not matching the full out versions of bigger 35mm cameras, it has capabilities surpassing even the best SLRs (in certain categories, and the very small size makes it also very convenient).
Your better discreet amp, I would compare to Canon EOS, for instance. It seems big and full featured, but when you look at the pictures made with it, you noticed that something is missing (for me it's resolution and immediacy of exposed images). It has zoom and functions that make it perform in most any situations, yet, when you look at the pictures they don't look lively, but flat and boring.😉
So for last few years I haven't been using the big camera, but small one exclusively.
Now, if Halcro is as good as they claim, it could be Nikon F5 (if we want to stick to SLRs or maybe even a big format camera), but still, the big size and price prevents me from using it frequently and there is no much fun in using it as it's simply inconvenient, big and good only for professional work (at a time I had two F4 bodies but quickly sold them as they didn't see much use).
Also, the pictures done with Nikon Ti are not any worse that pictures done with Nikon F4, actually some of them were much better.
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Yall guys and your cameras LOL. I still use my old minolta srt 101, hell i even still have a slide rule.
As far as amps i still have my old restored marantz 2230 and my homebrew 6bq5 PP amps and even dust them off and play them now and then, but my mainstay is the LM3875 with battery power driving my fostex horns.It wins hands down.
ron
quote from one of my old ME profs."the hardest thing you can do is to make something simple"
As far as amps i still have my old restored marantz 2230 and my homebrew 6bq5 PP amps and even dust them off and play them now and then, but my mainstay is the LM3875 with battery power driving my fostex horns.It wins hands down.
ron
quote from one of my old ME profs."the hardest thing you can do is to make something simple"
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